Fishing Creek Columbia county (upper stretches)

* Interesting that West Creek is included in this report...
https://coldwaterheritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/fishing-creek.pdf

* West Creek is in allCatskill Bedrock... careless drainage area lines drawn in orange below but its all cat...
* West Branch has Catskill but mostly Huntley and burgoon which do not buffer as well... (burgoon is low buffering see next post)...
* This bedrock geology difference connected to data showing West Branch pH falling below 6 as discharge increases while West Creek pH does not... (pH=log scale of course, so 5 = 10x acidity of 6)...
* Browns in the West Branch may be a more of a seasonal thing (Mike recently noted such effects in another thread); I wouldn't expect them there at a high flow... for ex probably not when floodish or in snowmelt...
* Good if the pollution source affecting the West Branch is reduced, but stream water improvement can lag pollution Improvement... by many years, I believe I have read...
* Does West Creek have some public access? wondered about that one!
 

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* Image below is page 3 - 17 of the East Branch report linked below (note these are "average" pH conditions)
* Part of the story in this area is more burgoon in the East Branch than the West Branch, and no burgoon in West Creek... see chart w wbfc & ebfc pH data as flow increases in previous post... for ex., ebfc pH < 5.5...
* page 1-6 or so in report linked below details consequences of pH below 6 for trout..
* report below also notes some treatment in upper heberly trib of ebfc w forest area limestone application -- cool imho...

 

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k-bob said:
* Interesting that West Creek is included in this report...
https://coldwaterheritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/fishing-creek.pdf

* West Creek is in allCatskill Bedrock... careless drainage area lines drawn in orange below but its all cat...
* West Branch has Catskill but mostly Huntley and burgoon which do not buffer as well... (burgoon is low buffering see next post)...
* This bedrock geology difference connected to data showing West Branch pH falling below 6 as discharge increases while West Creek pH does not... (pH=log scale of course, so 5 = 10x acidity of 6)...
* Browns in the West Branch may be a more of a seasonal thing (Mike recently noted such effects in another thread); I wouldn't expect them there at a high flow... for ex probably not when floodish or in snowmelt...
* Good if the pollution source affecting the West Branch is reduced, but stream water improvement can lag pollution Improvement... by many years, I believe I have read...
* Does West Creek have some public access? wondered about that one!
Click to expand...
My cousin has a cabin on it a bit below the falls. I caught a rainbow on it down below a bit along the road.
 
Interesting thread. So _wbfc in its middle ranges_ has some low buffering burgoon bedrock, pH below 6 as flow increases, biomass that is barely class C, and is stocked.

Someone earlier asked what might happen in this wbfc range without stocking? my guess fwiw is still Class C or so with that pH below 6 as flow increases.

The upper reaches of the wbfc have much less Burgoon Bedrock than its middle section (map post 81) -- and there are those class a brookie tribs in the upper part. Last time I fished Hemlock run by the way I didn't catch a single fish over the waterfalls I wonder if a drought knocked them out up there

Anyhow, you can see some proxy information about the very low acidity buffering of burgoon bedrock by putting "USGS well water data Sullivan County Pennsylvania" in Google and then reading the pH data for various bedrocks in that report. Also image post 82...

I really like the east branch and West Branch reports that appeared in this thread ... great that they both have relevant Bedrock geology Maps!
 
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The East Branch and tribs are very infertile.

Not so with the West Branch. Looking through old PFBC survey info:

They found brown trout way up into the Gamelands. And where browns are present, a stream is not extremely infertile.

They surveyed below Slip Run, which is about 4.7 miles up from the lower SGL boundary, and found a few browns that far up. They got a pH of 6.8, which is not bad at all.

They found more browns below Hemlock Run, and even more below Big Run.

The limitation of brook trout populations in the West Branch in the Gamelands is physical habitat limiations (lack of pools and cover) from past stream alterations. An old logging railroad grade pins a long section of the stream into a straight channel. Where there is good habitat, there are wild trout. But overall the physical habitat isn't very good. And the other limitation is that it's stocked.

The report, which is from 1987, says numerous recommendations have been made to end stocking. But here we are at the end of 2022, and it's still stocked.
 
Slip run, check a map, is above hemlock run in the upper part of wbfc where there is no burgoon bedrock.

The stocked stretch is below that where the stream is influenced by Burgoon bedrock... the west Branch report has a geology map showing the burgoon...

The West Branch Fishing Creek report also shows pH in that middle stretch with more burgoon Bedrock going below 6 as the flow increases... and unfortunately stream pH recovery lags pollution recovery...

I definitely agree that the habitat in middle stretch of wbfc is compromised by that former railroad, now a dirt road. Probably channeling etc...

So there are the habitat issues and the problem Bedrock and acid deposition causing the pH to fall below six in middle (not upper) wbfc stretch as flow increases .. just my opinion, but if the middle wbfc is low class c biomass now, my guess is youd still have a class C stream stretch due habitat and pH that goes <6 even without the stocking...
 
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Burgoon and class a, wbfc & efbc. pH of wbfc by slip run, one of the class As in upper wbfc, may not tell you about longer burgoon influenced wbfc stretch.

For info on burgoon's low buffering capacity relative to other local bedrock: put "usgs sullivan county well water data" in google...
 

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troutbert said:
I know there has been liming on the East Branch.

But I have not heard about liming on the West Branch. Has that been happening?
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The East Branch has some beautiful water in the gamelands but was heavily affected by acid rain at least 40 to 45 years ago. Has the liming helping to restore any wild fish to that branch?

The West has had wild fish for many years. With the CCC improvements basically gone that stream could use some structure work to really create a good wild population.
 
greywolf said:
The East Branch has some beautiful water in the gamelands but was heavily affected by acid rain at least 40 to 45 years ago. Has the liming helping to restore any wild fish to that branch?
Click to expand...
I don't know. The last time I fished it was probably in the late 1980s or early 1990s. It was stocked at that time. It seemed to have very few trout then.

Does anyone know if any stocking is being done on the East Branch now? The PFBC regs booklet seems to indicate that the PFBC is not stocking it. But is any stocking done by a club hatchery?
 
greywolf said:
The East Branch has some beautiful water in the gamelands but was heavily affected by acid rain at least 40 to 45 years ago. Has the liming helping to restore any wild fish to that branch?

The West has had wild fish for many years. With the CCC improvements basically gone that stream could use some structure work to really create a good wild population.
Click to expand...
the acid rain was much less that 40 years ago, it really began to have issues in the 1990 (guess that is 30 years) but it is still prevailing today
 
fishjake said:
the acid rain was much less that 40 years ago, it really began to have issues in the 1990 (guess that is 30 years) but it is still prevailing today
Click to expand...
When you say there are still PH concerns on that stream is it based on recent testing?
 
fishjake said:
yes, actually this monday i am driving around taking samples and will report actual field data
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I'd be very curious to see what your sample show at the upper end of East Branch Fishing Creek, and the tribs there.

The West Branch watershed seems pretty understandable and similar to many other places.

But the East Branch has got some mysteries. Both Sullivan Run and Heberly Run have native brook trout in their lower ends. And those tribs form East Branch Fishing Creek, and people say that is too acidic to support wild trout. That doesn't add up. It's a discrepancy.

I've read that Lead Run has very bad water quality. But why? Natural geology reasons are was there mining, as the name suggests? And nearby is Big Run. I fished that and didn't see any fish at all.

Up Sullivan Run a ways is a trib called Ore Run, which strongly suggests a mining history.
 
troutbert said:
I'd be very curious to see what your sample show at the upper end of East Branch Fishing Creek, and the tribs there.

The West Branch watershed seems pretty understandable and similar to many other places.

But the East Branch has got some mysteries. Both Sullivan Run and Heberly Run have native brook trout in their lower ends. And those tribs form East Branch Fishing Creek, and people say that is too acidic to support wild trout. That doesn't add up. It's a discrepancy.

I've read that Lead Run has very bad water quality. But why? Natural geology reasons are was there mining, as the name suggests? And nearby is Big Run. I fished that and didn't see any fish at all.

Up Sullivan Run a ways is a trib called Ore Run, which strongly suggests a mining history.
Click to expand...
we will be taking multiple samples, and even more data points for PH, I will share once we find them
 
greywolf said:
The East Branch has some beautiful water in the gamelands but was heavily affected by acid rain at least 40 to 45 years ago. Has the liming helping to restore any wild fish to that branch?
Click to expand...
East Branch does have some nice looking water. I only fished it once, back around 2003. If I recall, there were some nice pools where I swore I'd get something, but no dice. Not a single trout.

I've since heard/read that there are some natives in the East Branch. Don't know how true that might be.
 
troutbert said:
I'd be very curious to see what your sample show at the upper end of East Branch Fishing Creek, and the tribs there.

The West Branch watershed seems pretty understandable and similar to many other places.

But the East Branch has got some mysteries. Both Sullivan Run and Heberly Run have native brook trout in their lower ends. And those tribs form East Branch Fishing Creek, and people say that is too acidic to support wild trout. That doesn't add up. It's a discrepancy.

I've read that Lead Run has very bad water quality. But why? Natural geology reasons are was there mining, as the name suggests? And nearby is Big Run. I fished that and didn't see any fish at all.

Up Sullivan Run a ways is a trib called Ore Run, which strongly suggests a mining history.
Click to expand...
Also, I've heard Quinn Run, an upper Heberly trib doesn't hold trout. Supposedly water quality issues. That doesn't make sense to me since Heberly has a good native population.
 
Highly relevant article on streams like e&wbfc that are subject to seasonal acid & toxic dissolved alum spikes in spring runoff and/or soil thaw is avail free from first link below. Article has data on brookie mortality and movement during the seasonal spikes; table with 1-5 acid/dsslved alum spike severity levels and brookie biomass associations; data on brookie biomass x ongoing non-spike pH levels; also mentions non-spike seasonal presence of other fishes incl brown trout. Data includes PA streams. The fishing creek watershed report linked this thread gives dissolved alum data that can be related to this article's severity levels, and it specifically mentions damaging acid/dsslved alum spikes @ soil thaw...

 
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wt2: the east branch fishing report linked this thread has a map showing that psu did a cool forest liming project in uppermost heberly. quinn would differ and fwiw I didnt find many fish - maybe none cant remember- on quinn
 
k-bob said:
Highly relevant article on streams like e&wbfc that are subject to seasonal acid & toxic dissolved alum spikes in spring runoff and/or soil thaw is avail free from first link below. Article has data on brookie mortality and movement during the seasonal spikes; table with 1-5 acid/dsslved alum spike severity levels and brookie biomass associations; data on brookie biomass x ongoing non-spike pH levels; also mentions non-spike seasonal presence of other fishes incl brown trout. Data includes PA streams. The fishing creek watershed report linked this thread gives dissolved alum data that can be related to this article's severity levels, and it specifically mentions damaging acid/dsslved alum spikes @ soil thaw...

Click to expand...
Very interesting thanks for sharing. The downstream movement is interesting because some of these streams likely have manmade barriers and as we have seen from other research looking at isolated populations above them, the majority of time brook trout will not go down over these. So if you already have a chemical barrier keeping invasive species out and downstream passage during spikes is an important life history strategy then you would think would add to case for removing some of these derelict dams
 
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