Etiquette?

JackM & Mattboyer,
Ok, so if I triangulate where you boys are generally, and figure you're not travelling salesman, which means you eat no more than 20 miles from home on average, and I get out my AAA guide to out of the way eating places with gorgeous waitresses in the general vicinity, and then factor in a couple of variable coordinates such as over and underpasses and/or the Pa. Turnpike, and if I can get close enough to spend the time sampling, I can take my best friend who should be grateful enough to buy my dinner but courteous enough to leave the waitress to me.

the only question wouldbe what weight line should I use on the waitress. :-D
Coughlin
 
OK, seriously, I think that if any of you think that keeping a stream secret is vital to the future of a fisherery, you're wrong. Unless you share it no one will value it, protect it, and ensure access to it. Now your FISHING may suffer because someone may be in "your" hole more often, but lets be honest you're protecting your FISHING not the FISHERY.

Whenever I'm on the stream I always say hello. Some people grunt, others ignore me - if you talk to me I'll tell you what hatches and fish I've seen. I suppose this makes me a idealistic fool.

Went fishing this saturday in the Smoky Mountains with one of my INTERNET mentors and well as two people I have taught to fly fish. I had built rods for all three and all caught fish using them. I caught fish with flies that one of them had tied. Wonderful.

What I think is rude is people that show pictures or tell stories and don't share a durn thing (fly patterns, sizes, techniques or locations). This is what my momma taught me is bragging, and I try not to do that.

Don't even get me started on people who get on people for sharing or outright misdirect people........way too many fly fisherman like that.....sorry if you disagree but I think you are a poor sportsman if you do those things. Say something positive or don't say anything at all.

All this being said I don't get any more specific than a well known stream anymore on the internet because if I share more details people's knickers get in a twist.
 
Ohio outdoorsman:

please explain how posting info about a small unstocked native stream is going to protect it.
I figure all you're going to do by drawing attention to it is make it more crowded, make the fish harder to catch, and possibly send meat fishermen there who could legally kill 5 fish. And if the stream is on private land, it could possibly cause the landowner to get fed up and post it.
You can't be certain that everyone who reads this site practices catch and release. Now, I'm sure most guys on here do, but you never know. These streams are too fragile to chance it IMO.
That said, if I were able to make it to the Jamboree - which, unfortunately I can't this year, because I'm working that weekend, - after getting to know you guys, i would probably gladly share info about native streams.
I also do it with guys I know from my TU chapter.
 
dryflyguy wrote:
Ohio outdoorsman:

please explain how posting info about a small unstocked native stream is going to protect it.
I figure all you're going to do by drawing attention to it is make it more crowded, make the fish harder to catch, and possibly send meat fishermen there who could legally kill 5 fish. And if the stream is on private land, it could possibly cause the landowner to get fed up and post it.
You can't be certain that everyone who reads this site practices catch and release. Now, I'm sure most guys on here do, but you never know. These streams are too fragile to chance it IMO.
That said, if I were able to make it to the Jamboree - which, unfortunately I can't this year, because I'm working that weekend, - after getting to know you guys, i would probably gladly share info about native streams.
I also do it with guys I know from my TU chapter.
Click to expand...

With all that said, how can you share with anybody? How can you be certain they wont tell their brother who tells someone outside the circle and they to the internet.

Secret streams must go to the grave. :lol:

Seriously, I don't like to hear streams talked about that I treasure either but the last thing I would do is draw more attention to it by calling them out and dragging it on and on and on.

I have a mental code of sensitive streams that people have cried about seeing on here. It is not that long actually...maybe my memory is going. But I can tell you Kettle Creek is not one of them. I am glad I know about them. Even if I never fish them, I can try to evaluate their rise to fame and failure over the years.

That said, I have to fall on the side of keeping things low profile, like you, and trust my judgement with the people I feel closer to than those who lurk on internet websites.

Maurice
 
Stonefly,

Ask and you shall receive. Three projects I have donated to/been involved in this past year:

http://www.jerrygreerphotography.com/rocky_fork_tn.htm

http://www.paconserve.org/rc/lp.html

http://www.landoskytu.com/restoration.html

ALL HAVE NATIVE BROOK TROUT STREAMS WITHIN THEIR WATRESHEDS AND WERE PUBLICIZED.

Publicity=interested people=$$$$$=long term conservation solutions (ownership/leases/trusts)

Secret spots, tight lips, unwillingness to share with newcomers/children = better fishing for you in the short term but little natural legacy for our children.

Conserve the watersheds or your short term fishing experience, you choose. If you choose the latter, don't complain when there is a subdivision being built on your secret brook trout streams.
 
Ohio outdoorsman:

I'm dryflyguy, not stonefly!

Anyway, your point is well taken. These are very worthwhile projects and I commend you for supporting them.
It's just that after 25 years of flyfishing, I've seen some good streams ruined because of slobbish behavior. And this can happen on our better, well know streams with special regs also. Sometimes, I really think it's better to leave well enough alone.
For me, there's just something really neat about doing my homework on a new native stream prospect, and checking it out to see if it really does have wild fish. The solitude of these places is also part of the experience IMO.
 
Dryflyguy,

Oops, my apologies. Was thinking about the stonefly hatches I saw this past weekend in the smokies.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy finding new streams and solitude, too. But I think by and large, meatfisherman avoid these places becasue the fishing is poor in terms of meat. When's the last time any of us could have limited out on a small wild brokie stream with 5 fish over 7"? On these streams, I and other C and R fisherman probably kill more fish by handling them them than the meat fisherman do who don't fish these areas much at all.

I think the only way to practically protect these streams anymore would be to close them to fishing entirely, which I don't think is necessary and would deter the small amount of secret support they have already.

Bill
 
Coughlin wrote:
JackM & Mattboyer,
Ok, so if I triangulate where you boys are generally, and figure you're not travelling salesman, which means you eat no more than 20 miles from home on average, and I get out my AAA guide to out of the way eating places with gorgeous waitresses in the general vicinity, and then factor in a couple of variable coordinates such as over and underpasses and/or the Pa. Turnpike, and if I can get close enough to spend the time sampling, I can take my best friend who should be grateful enough to buy my dinner but courteous enough to leave the waitress to me.

the only question wouldbe what weight line should I use on the waitress. :-D
Coughlin
Click to expand...

Voughlin, don't fall for it. they are clearly trying to divert everyone away from thiir favorite Lasagna hole. I'm a food expert, and I know of an excelent place for Lasagna that is much closer to were Jack lives. It is off the beaten path too. They served the best Lasagna that I ever had in a restaurant. Not only that, the portion was so large that I only needed one serving while those guys needed 4 or 5. And I'll give 2 to 1 odds that I can eat more Lasagnia than either one of them. The only difference was, the lady who served my Lasagna was a sweet older lady.

I'm not divulging the location out of respect for Jack.
 
OhioOutdoorsman wrote:
OK, seriously, I think that if any of you think that keeping a stream secret is vital to the future of a fisherery, you're wrong. Unless you share it no one will value it, protect it, and ensure access to it. Now your FISHING may suffer because someone may be in "your" hole more often, but lets be honest you're protecting your FISHING not the FISHERY.

Whenever I'm on the stream I always say hello. Some people grunt, others ignore me - if you talk to me I'll tell you what hatches and fish I've seen. I suppose this makes me a idealistic fool.

Went fishing this saturday in the Smoky Mountains with one of my INTERNET mentors and well as two people I have taught to fly fish. I had built rods for all three and all caught fish using them. I caught fish with flies that one of them had tied. Wonderful.

What I think is rude is people that show pictures or tell stories and don't share a durn thing (fly patterns, sizes, techniques or locations). This is what my momma taught me is bragging, and I try not to do that.

Don't even get me started on people who get on people for sharing or outright misdirect people........way too many fly fisherman like that.....sorry if you disagree but I think you are a poor sportsman if you do those things. Say something positive or don't say anything at all.

All this being said I don't get any more specific than a well known stream anymore on the internet because if I share more details people's knickers get in a twist.
Click to expand...

Ohio, I think in some cases you are right, and in others, you are not. For streams that are already well protected, more attention can only hurt. On the other hand, near development and other things, more friends does mean more protection.

No, in that spirit, I am going to share a little tidbit about a stream. Not many people know about this one. I grew up not far from there, and drove across it many times, and I didn't know about it. The stream is Toby Creek. Not Little Toby which had a restoration project and is now stocked. I'm talking about Big Toby that is mostly in Clarion County. I found out recently that there are still brook trout in it's headwaters. I doubt it is worth fishing though. There are better streams close by. However, most of this stream is devoid of fish because of AMD. If this stream were restored, it would be an excelent trout stream. It runs cold all year. I know, I grew up swimming in that crick. I doubt the water temperatures ever got above the low 60s. I've caught fish in a small tributary. they are there, but the main stream is dead. It is in a lot better shape now than it was when I was a kid, so I think it would be a prime candidate for a restoration project. I don't live around there anymore, but i would donate money to such a project. Just putting the idea out there.
 
There's definitely a FINE line between all these issues. I would never want to see a stream, river etc... gone or threatened because of no participation to save it or lack of education about it. That is a possibility if we as ANGLERS (not only fly fisherman) do not educate others and youth about our sport. I also believe that there are many more good sportsman out there than we remember at times. Unfortunately, as in most cases, the good get overshadowed by the minority who would not respect anybody or anything. I have read this board for several years and grew up in PA which is why I play on this site. I am familiar with many of your names and opinions but I don't know any of you and I don't think any of you know everyone that posts here. For all I know you are a great conservationist or a littering disrespectful A$$. When posting on the internet you never know who your ENTIRE audience is. I think it is wise to use caution when sharing "too much information" on the internet. I still don't believe it makes sense to blab about this stuff in its entirety here, however I agree that fly fisherman can be snobs, some of my comments may make me out to be one, although I know Im not. Let's just consider the consequences both good and bad before sharing all this information in this way.
 
Etiquette, simply being considerate/respectful of stream, anglers and fish. It's that simple, obeying the laws and regulations the state put's forth, also abideing to those virtues you may put higher, such as C&R.............Fish on.

As for broadcasting secret spots to others that could impact a stream negatively, those are decisions and responses that anglers need to make for themselves. As for me, those gem of places, that I'll find not a soul, will forever be close to me and guarded.....
 
BPS,
Bald Eagle is probably the best 1st day fishing I had. Too bad parts warm so quickly. It really is nice back there. I imagine it has diminished a little since the "super highway" construction began.

I will choose watching and laughing at people rather than making a pompas a$$ of my self trying to teach the trade.....on first day. To me fishing is a private endevor. I don't care how useful the information is if someone told me I was doing it wrong I probably would be offended. Kinda like someone telling you that you are going about kissing your wife the wrong way. Mind your own buissnes buddy would be my reply!
 
ryanh,
Yeah it does warm up too quickly, so I fish it quite a bit early cuz it's fun while it lasts.

Don't get the impression that I'm some idiot who tells people what to do. But I am an idiot who tells people how I feel. Under your circumstances, someone crowding my kid, they would get an ethics crash course. I first would try to understand why someone would do this, then I would feel obligated to call them on it. Yeah I'd probably be a horrible example as a father, and it's most likely a good thing I don't have kids yet. But if I were on the stream being a retard, I would want someone to tell me about it. For years my dad thought the only way to catch Salmon in a stream was to "lift" them with a ton of lead and a size 2 hook.
Simply put he thought that's how you did it. Man looking back, I bet some people said a lot of stuff behind his back, but nobody until I got into fly fishing and seen they could actually be caught, told him any different. He actually found it to be embarrassing that he was "cheating" and didn't know any better.
 
BPS wrote:
.....I first would try to understand why someone would do this, then I would feel obligated to call them on it.
....Simply put he thought that's how you did it. .... but nobody..... told him any different. He actually found it to be embarrassing that he was "cheating" and didn't know any better.
Click to expand...
I think it's a good idea (good etiquette?), especially with opening day anglers, but really any time, to begin with the premise that the other guy just might not know any better (I mean as far as fishing etiquette, not fishing technique) . Often this is the case, and when told politely they will often be apologetic and cool about it. Some people though don't like to be corrected in any manner. And with this in mind I often will just let things slide, because I'm out to enjoy myself, not get into beefs with people. But I don't want to tell you guys how to do it ;-) !
 
A while back, several years ago I fished the opening day with soem buddies. We witnessed a guy and his kids walk directly through the hole where everyone was casting and fishing. I felt bad for the guy because he didnt have a clue but then a guy with a gun on his hip yelled at him and started this big confrontation over it. this guys kid had to watch his dad get yelled at by a guy with a 357 in his holster. Dont ask me why he was packing on a trout stream full of anglers. The confrontation issue made me think of that story.
 
Wulff-man,

I couldn't agree more. Maybe I'm naive, but I would rather assume people "don't know" as opposed to "don't care".

I also think you should have to take an ethics course to acquire a fishing license. I think landowners would appreciate it too. There was an article in the local rag this past weekend about litter along streams, and how big of an issue it was.

How would you handle it if you saw someone littering?
Would you call them on it? Would you turn them in without saying anything? Or would you just wait for them to leave and pick it up?

I would probably say something along the lines of ,"Hey you dropped this." and hand it to them.
 
BPS,

I think the ethics course is a good idea, but maybe something more practical would be to at least include a one page flyer with every license that hits the main points.

As far as whether I would turn in a litterer, it would depend on whether they were old friends or not :-D . But seriously, I would probably just pick it up. Maybe making an effort to pick up all the trash laying around and putting it in a trash bag, while you are obviously there to fish and not as a trash man, would make some people think twice about it.
 
For streams that are already well protected, more attention can only hurt.
Click to expand...

How so? Are we talking about the fish or your fishing experience.......

For example, are you arguing that the fisheries in our national parks like the smoky mountains or yellowstone actually suffer because of their widely publicized and protected status? I think these fisheriries will be the last to be threatened because everyone visits, values them, and has agreed to limit development and do whatever needs to be done to conserve and/or protect them.

I just don't get it.....

Now I don't think anyone is obligated to share their spots and agree that unless everyone does it equally in can cause problems. But pointing a beginner to a stocked stream is about the best thing you can do for both the fish and the fisherman......if your stream is too crowded, find another place to fish. But it unreasonable to expect a stream with easy roadside access and big fish will not be crowded, especially when its paid for by everyone's taxes and fishing liscences.
 
Dear ohio outdoorsman,

FWIW, and I admit it's not much, I have to agree with everything you have posted on this thread.

You seem to be the kind of person I'd fish with anyday of the week. Your honesty and lack of pretentiousness is refreshing to see among a modern fly fisherman, as those traits seem to be diminishing each and every year.

Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂
 
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