Delaware River- " We have a problem Houston!"

the letort is an artifical fishery also
Click to expand...

How so? Other than the browns have invaded the native brookies realm...the Letort is a natural cold watery fishery, period. There is no manmade structure that creates the cold water flows needed to support the trout.

Tailwaters, any and all of them, are artificial cold water fisheries. Remove the dams and what do you have? Nature in her natural state. The fishery would respond in kind and you'll still have one hell of a recreational opportunity, it'll just be for different species. Or it'll still be cold water, just not as enhanced by our meddling as it is now. It's a shame we've made a real mess of it short term, long term it'll all sort out.

So, apologies if I'm not one to fawn over these tailwaters, they can be a real blast, but my preferences run towards catching wild fish in natural fisheries. That's all.

Hopefully this is just a small hiccup up there and things will be back to 'normal' soon enough for those who enjoy and are passionate about it.


but the real reason we dont get more done is infighting like this
Click to expand...

yeah, so I guess I'll just shut my trap from here on out, unless I wholeheartedly agree with the majority opinion. I'll be sure to toe the company line from here on out. :roll:
 
I am with Krayfish on this one. Unless we remove the farms, houses, towns, and people from the river valleys these rivers will never return to their original pristine cool to cold condition and the rainbows and browns have established themselves and that prevents the brook trout from coming back to the main rivers in any significant number.

The tailraces fisheries while artificial create conditions similar to what once was and are a precious and unique fishing resource.

My understanding was that the hydro project was supposed to be a sometime thing utilizing spill water and that would encourage the DEP to hold back the cold water releases in favor of creating a spill situation that would release warmer surface water in the Summer.

The turbines would also grind up the trout and alewives that normally come over the dam into the river and help make the fishery what it is today.

Then you have the reputation of the DEP regarding their false promises and double speak and you have a situation where the Catskills folks are dubious about anything they say, or say they are going to do. The folks of the Catskills have paid a heavy price due to the heavy handed and ham handed policies and practices of the DEP and have gotten precious little in return.

I called a few folks I know in Deposit and Hancock trying to see if I could get more information on the situation and all these folks wanted to talk about was their fear that the dam was going to come down and wipe them out. At first I thought they were joking and then I realized that they have this almost irrational fear of the DEP and what they might do to them. That gives you a little insight into how shell shocked these folks are when it come to the DEP and their tactics.
 
According to the FUDR site, there was a public meeting in Deposit on the 16th (yesterday). There is also a meeting scheduled in Hancock for tomorrow morning at 10am. At this time, the only info I can find is the DCNR press release that's already been posted. With any luck this is just a minor bump in the road. I believe I was told the hydro is to provide a steady 400-600 release but only time will tell how it will actually operate. 44 degrees at the Hale Eddy gauge and low/mid 50's at Lordville! Temps in July might be good all the way to Long Eddy which is unheard of. So there is some silver lining to that cloud.

LongWader,
The casino in Monticello is under construction to 're-birth the Catskills'. We'll have to see how the additional run off from 400 acres of black top impacts flooding in the region but I think some of that will flow toward the Hudson.




Tomi,
The majority 98%+ of the fish in the WB, Main and lower EB are wild. The upper EB does get a stocking but also holds healthy wild fish population. Delaware system is similar to Letort / Spring and many other wild trout fisheries in the sense that they were once stocked. Getting a cast at a fish before it freaks out is the challenge on the Letort. The Delaware fish will allow you to close the distance (sometimes) but can be brutally selective.
 
yuh, i made a comment on the 'Locations' thread about how this is structurally a nightmare.

an upwelling from 24ft below the surface means that somewhere, and it could be anywhere in the lake's bottom, that water pressure is forcing water down and downhill undermining the integrity of the dam - this is actually quite common as water will always find a way around a structure (more often to the sides).

they will have to geologically survey the entire lake bottom and look where its been compromised 'upstream'.

that can be plugged with the lake full, but if the compromise is wide spread or endemic, you might see that they cut back the dam safety level to reduce the water pressure on the lake bottom.

best case scenario - they reduce the dam capacity but operate at normal flows, and the fishing is unaffected.

worst case scenario - the lake bottom is both unfixable and unsuitable and they remove the dam entirely permanently and the WBD goes back to a smallmouth fishery.


cheers

Mark.
 
Tomi,
The majority 98%+ of the fish in the WB, Main and lower EB are wild. The upper EB does get a stocking but also holds healthy wild fish population. The Delaware fish will allow you to close the distance (sometimes) but can be brutally selective.
Click to expand...

each to their own, but although not 'natural' most tailwaters support wild fish - most in fact are not stocked - the upper conneticut, upper delaware, upper new found river (NH), upper big gunpowder falls (MD), East outlet of the Kennebec, Rapid river (ME), Norfork & White rivers (AR) etc come to mind.

and that is not 'easy' wild fishing at all - these are big wary strong fish on big waters mostly, what spring creekers would call 'technical' fishing.

and i'd go as far as to say that Atlantic Salmon excepted, the upper WB browns are the strongest fresh water fish i've caught so far.

so it may not be natural but its challenging and ultimately very rewarding and downright fun.

just my .02.

cheers

Mark.



 
:roll:
 
I spoke to some more locals this afternoon who know the drilling folks and they say the water is shooting out of the bore hole like it has a lot of pressure behind it and their best guess is that the bore hole hit a major fissure in the rock substrate. If that is the case it would probably mean a long and expensive repair effort and is not good news.

These same folks also said that the last they heard the DEP was not sure they were moving forward with the project and now they find out they were getting ready to install the equipment and have a problem. After all the 2006 flood damage they are a little nervous about having 97 million gallons of water hanging over their heads and with the DEP who treats them like they are the last folks who need to know.

For those of you who could not care less about the fate of the Delaware river I am sure you will not mind sharing your favorite river with hundreds of new fishers who have decided the Delaware is no longer worth their time and effort and have decided your river is the next best thing.
 
This is all so disturbing. The WB is my favorite river for fishing but more importantly, I find it disturbing that the NY DEP would be so non transparent in dealing with the people that depend on the system for making a living and the safety of living in the area. I mean if something actually happened to that dam I would imagine the consequences would be incredible all the way down the entire DE river system. Hopefully they are being totally truthful in the upcoming meetings.
 
Ryan,
I can't talk much about the Upper Conn, I've only fished it a handful of times and never in the summer when it's hot. I was talking about the Andro where I've fished below Berlin's dam and below Gorham's dam and they just plain raise the water temps, the same with Ayer's dam on the Pemi. Some hydro plants release cold water, especially the ones on larger rivers, the ones I've seen on smaller rivers do not release cold water and possibly increase silt levels above and below them.I don't have any contact with the guides, I'm just basing my opinions on what I've seen. It's funny, I hardly ever see anyone else on the water and when I do it's often someone from Pa, maybe I'll see ya on the water. I'll be the one with the Richardson box.
 
krayfish2 wrote:
And yes Jack, lets not have the fish suffer. You like to dry fly fish and should try it sometime but you'd have to drive past Penns to get there and we all know that's as far east as you'll go. The river has unbelievable insect life and your AVERAGE fish is 17" with tons over 20" and plenty of surface feeding fish in the 23"-25" range. As a fly angler, you don't see losing this resource as a shame? It rivals many waters in the west but has fish that are as /more difficult to catch than what you'll find in the railroad ranch section of the Henry's Fork.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the opportunity to elaborate:

I would favor anything that preserved your pleasure in fishing this river even though I likely will never fish it or maybe once or twice in my life, to an extent. I do object to hand-wringing over the effects to a fisherie, no matter how good, when the flip-side is flood control, safety of other kinds, water resource needs, or even white-water rafting. There is no priority in my assessment of societal goods for fly fishing.

In many cases, it can be preserved consistent with these other worthwhile endeavors, but it is painful to see people who don't "live down stream" be callous toward those who do.
 
While I have not heard anything about the meeting in Hancock yet I did see that the DEP posted on their own site that while they don't think there is an imminent danger, they are lowering the reservoir out of an abundance of caution, testing the sediment to see where it came from, and have posted an inundation map for the Upper Delaware valley just in case.

Now that should make the folks who live in the valley feel all warm and fuzzy.
 
HHere's some info from today's meeting. I'll see if I can get any additional info from Jeff at the DRC in the morning. I'm hoping they didn't create the same type of situation that's on the Esopus and the release water will be chocolate milk colored 24/7.

Update on Drilling Accident at Cannonsville Dam

This week we learned that drilling activities undertaken by NYCDEP associated with the proposed hydroelectric facility at the base of the Cannonsville Dam in Stilesville, NY accidentally resulted in the seepage of turbid water into the West Branch of the Upper Delaware River.

At this time, the regulatory agencies in charge of response actions do not believe there are any public safety concerns or issues of dam safety related to the accident.

FUDR fully supports the initial response activities that have been set into motion and the cautionary approach exercised by authorities that places paramount importance on public safety.

Once the initial response actions to the accident ensure that all public safety concerns are addressed, there are important corollary issues regarding downstream impacts on the regional economy and the riverine environment that need to be addressed including:

The potential for short and long term water quality impacts as a result of the turbid seepage and the actions that need to be taken to ensure the protection of the downstream river environment and the people and communities that rely on a healthy river system.

Apparent inconsistencies in how perceived drinking water supply needs affected water release decisions in the spring of 2015 versus water release decisions made in response to the accident.

The downstream impacts of the high volume water releases from Cannonsville reservoir that may occur until the projected completion of the repair work (September 2015). 

These include: 
a) The potential for rapid depletion of the cold water inventory in the reservoir and how thermal stress conditions in the river will be addressed and
b) The potential for severely low water levels in the reservoir and how that will impact water releases through the fall and winter.

The need for a “water credit” system to ensure the recovery of the amount of additional water released in response to the accident that exceeds the normal release schedules of the current water management plan.
 
So they're not saying anything yet.
 
It says a lot. There was a drilling accident associated with the hydroelectric facility.

Public safety is number one. The public is safe

The dam is safe

They will be deciding what next with all things considered including drinking water, healthoff the river and its fishery and how it will all be effected by high volume water release.

This is all in response to an accident that occurred in the last few weeks. What more would you like to know?
 
Based on convo I had with 2 guides that attended the meetings........

There was a pocket of subsurface water near the dam. This is not a new thing and has been known about for quite a few years.

The workers test drilled and struck the pocket of water which started to leak. They panicked and tried to rip the drill out. The bit broke and the casing cracked. Turbid water leaves into WB at dam site.

The lake is being dumped to remove pressure and expose the area that needs repair. They plan on plugging the area with concrete to shore it up and stop the leak.

The dam is not compromised and the residents are not in danger.

The water that leaked in .....unknown impact on local water supplies or damage to the river system.

The hydro project will still move forward but may be pushed back a year or so to allow for more studies. They admit it was a major screw up as well.

The repairs could be complete in the next 3-4.weeks or not until the end of September. At the current discharge and diversion, the lake will be out of cold water sooner than later. Depending on how much they have to dump to expose the area in need of repair, the lake may be out of any cold water by mid September. This could be a problem if the air temps are high and the rainfall amounts are low.

Not horrible news but definitely not great news.
 
The info in the press release is regurgitated.
 
NYC DEP has a Cannonsville page up on their website.

Still lots of unanswered questions, but up until the lake starts to dump dirty water or the lake runs out of coldwater (if we get to that point) the fishing will be pretty good. It was this past Saturday. Lots of bugs on the main stem and a lot of fish eating.

The inundation maps are worth a look.

 
The worst case scenario, imho, would be if the water is coming from the lake. If it's coming from an aquifer it's not as bad unless it's under the dam. At any rate at least we know more now. If the dam were to let go, it would be the worst disaster of any dam in the history of the US. 95 billion gallons of water released in seconds would inundate the entire Delaware valley within hours. It would be so much water that tributary streams would back up and flood.
 
The Delaware River below the Cannonsville Reservoir may run out of cold water by the middle of August if releases are maintained at the current level. Hopefully they can fix the problem and/or moderate the flow before that happens.

Here is a recent article on the situation:

Lowering reservoir could be 'catastrophic'

Businesses, fishermen worry about Delaware. There is concern that the Delaware River trout habitat could be harmed by warm water being released from the Cannonsville Reservoir.

ANDREW BEAM/TIMES HERALD-RECORD
By Andrew Beam
Times Herald-Record

Posted Jul. 21, 2015 at 8:40 PM

NARROWSBURG - Local fishermen and business owners are concerned that drawing down the Cannonsville Reservoir in Deposit could cause a financial blow to businesses along the Delaware River.

The New York City Department of Environmental Protection is currently lowering the reservoir because of a leak in its dam, releasing cold water beneath the surface that eventually reaches the West Branch of the Delaware River. But many who depend on the river for sport and business are worried that once the cold water runs out, the warm water on the surface that follows could devastate the trout habitat.

“This is a big deal,” said Dan Plummer, chairman of the board of directors for the Friends of the Upper Delaware River. “The river is the lifeblood of these communities.”

Trout fishing brings in some $12 million annually in Sullivan County, according to the Sullivan County Visitors Association.

Ken Tutalo, owner of the Baxter House in Roscoe - which offers lodging and guided fly fishing tours on the river, says if there is no rainfall between now and when the cold water is gone, the results could be “catastrophic.”

“People are nervous because of the potential of complete economic loss and loss of actual fishery,” Tutalo said.

The DEP was forced to drain the reservoir earlier this month after workers building a 14-megawatt hydroelectric facility drilled boring holes into a rock embankment of the dam. They pulled out a casing already in place during the process. It forced ground water - including sediment - that was under natural pressure several dozen feet below the surface to flow into the West Branch.

According to DEP Bureau of Water Supply Deputy Commissioner Paul Rush, about 43.6 billion gallons of the water in the reservoir - or about half of it - could be gone by Aug. 18. This would cause the warm water to start flowing from the reservoir and into the river.

But DEP spokesman Adam Bosch says the agency is hoping to release a blend of cold and warm water for the drinking water supply to preserve enough cold water for the river. But it will need permission from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. The hope, according to Bosch, is the dam can be fixed by the time the reservoir is 40 to 50 percent full.

Bosch said most fishermen understand the need to fix the dam and have praised DEP for acting so quickly. “The fishermen we’re talking to actually really do understand that dam safety trumps everything else,” Bosch said.

Link to source: http://www.recordonline.com/article/20150721/NEWS/150729855
abeam@th-record.com
 
My biggest concern is that it was learned that the decision to move forward with the Hydro system is still rated at 50/50 and I would hope common sense would prevail and they decide not to go forward with the project. The tax payers' money would be better spent if they worked on fixing the old infrastructure system that loses millions of gallons of water on its way to NYC. If the want hydro power they could use gravity fed systems in the new water mains.
Apparently three firms came up with the same plan to stop the leakage and plug the core drill site and it was to build a diversion well to take the pressure off the bore hole and use compounded caulk to fill the hole. The work is supposed to be completed before September 15th.

The DEP may have gotten lucky this time. I hope they don't try to press their luck.

The DEP representatives are well known for their double speak. They said the new valves they installed on the dams would enable them to better micro manage the water levels and provide a larger and more consistent cold water release.
While they said they could do that they decided to do just the opposite and held back more water and quietly pumped the water out of the reservoirs to the main distribution reservoir and bypassed the rivers entirely.

The DEC is responsible for managing the fisheries and they were not even invited to the meeting. That gives you an idea of how weak and ineffectual they are in this situation.

Historically the DEP will do whatever it is they feel is in their best interest regardless of its impact on the other stakeholders.

I am afraid that while Dam Safety is extremely important it may be a simply a diversion away from what the DEP really wants to do and has done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Harman's North Fork Cottages


Real Time Data From
the USGS Site

Share this page

Back
Top