Clubs stocking

[Chaz]

PASKIINGSUCKS wrote:
I'd be interested to learn more about this. I'm up in Chaz's neck of the woods and was just talking to a fella at the bar the other night about the PFBC coming to their club and removing a dam that had been there some half a century or so that was a part of their yearly rodeo.

He then went on to tell me they stock thousands of brookies only in many of the surrounding streams in the area. Obviously I don't have all the details as I didn't chew his ear off for hours. I did ask him about joining the club though as I think it would be interesting and I've been wanting to help out and explore the many aspects of fishing, stocking, and or conservation in my local watershed. Be it private clubs or TU.

I have no vested interest or biased viewpoint about either entity but he did not speak too highly of TU. I suppose I could see good and bad from both sides of the issue. Really though I wouldn't say I'm knowledgeable enough about either side to be adamant in my opinion of one or the other.

Just wondering, what you mean by my neck of the woods? To be very Clear I've never said anything negate about T.U.

 

[PASKIINGSUCKS]

Chaz wrote:

PASKIINGSUCKS wrote:
I'd be interested to learn more about this. I'm up in Chaz's neck of the woods and was just talking to a fella at the bar the other night about the PFBC coming to their club and removing a dam that had been there some half a century or so that was a part of their yearly rodeo.

He then went on to tell me they stock thousands of brookies only in many of the surrounding streams in the area. Obviously I don't have all the details as I didn't chew his ear off for hours. I did ask him about joining the club though as I think it would be interesting and I've been wanting to help out and explore the many aspects of fishing, stocking, and or conservation in my local watershed. Be it private clubs or TU.

I have no vested interest or biased viewpoint about either entity but he did not speak too highly of TU. I suppose I could see good and bad from both sides of the issue. Really though I wouldn't say I'm knowledgeable enough about either side to be adamant in my opinion of one or the other.

Just wondering, what you mean by my neck of the woods? To be very Clear I've never said anything negate about T.U.

I thought you work/fish/live in the perkiomen watershed area. That's what I meant.

Not sure what club this guy was from but I think they are in the hosensack or indian area with their club that had the damn removed.

I didn't mean you said anything about TU, I meant the guy I talked to(who was a club stocker) was none too fond of the game commission or PFBC or whoever took down their dam. I have also heard him speak ill of TU and their intended improvements to streams.

I believe he talked about a local meat/butcher company that I guess has ponds or tanks or whatever that were raising a few thousand fry for them and he said they indeed stock them all over that area.

Obviously some of this is barroom banter so take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

 

[MKern]

Mo is right that the hatchery has the responsibility to make sure the trout are not going into a class a stream.

And also the individuals who purchase they fish to know if a stream is class a or not.

I turned in a couple guys who dredged and dammed up a class a and stocked it with a couple hundred trout for the first day.

Just so happened my boss was also a WCO and went to confront the cabin owners (lease cabins on SGL's). He was going to educate them but cite the hatchery. The problem was they got real confrontational and made it know that they hand hand guns. So he through the book at them and then prosecuted the hatchery.

 

[Chaz]

PASKIINGSUCKS wrote:

Chaz wrote:

I thought you work/fish/live in the perkiomen watershed area. That's what I meant.

Not sure what club this guy was from but I think they are in the hosensack or indian area with their club that had the damn removed.

I didn't mean you said anything about TU, I meant the guy I talked to(who was a club stocker) was none too fond of the game commission or PFBC or whoever took down their dam. I have also heard him speak ill of TU and their intended improvements to streams.

I believe he talked about a local meat/butcher company that I guess has ponds or tanks or whatever that were raising a few thousand fry for them and he said they indeed stock them all over that area.

Obviously some of this is barroom banter so take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

Yes I am President of Perkiomen Valley TU. I just wasn't sure of your meaning of neck of the woods. We did not arrange the project, that was plan by the Conservation District for Lehigh County. The club was building dozens of rock dams to hold fish, on private land they leased from PPL. PPL has since terminated the lease, the club will probably blame TU for that to.

The project was to remove the dams, because they were built incorrectly and cause erosion. It also involve a few modified mud sills and tree planting, all of which was designed by PFBC.

That section of Hosensack Creek was surveyed recently and has a very high population of wild brown trout. So the club was in violation of it's coop agreement.

As far as what I said previously about clubs, they may be responsible for making sure that the fish are put in ATW's, but there is NO oversight. In the past when I've brought it up with the Coop Manager, he didn't seem to care a whole lot. And I brought it to his attention more then once.

 

[Maurice]

Chaz wrote:

As far as what I said previously about clubs, they may be responsible for making sure that the fish are put in ATW's, but there is NO oversight. In the past when I've brought it up with the Coop Manager, he didn't seem to care a whole lot. And I brought it to his attention more then once.

I agree there is no direct oversight. Its basically a plan and report system based on honor. And if in violation the clubs stand to lose their opportunity to raise and stock fish on their dime and effort for all to enjoy.

So you caught a stockie miles from any stocking point. Thats not to much of a smoking gun. I mean they swim. We've had tagged fish caught 8 miles upstream three weeks after being stocked. And 5 miles downstream too.

Seriously Chaz, this rural legend that Coops are out there doing clandestine stockings over class A pops and " clubs put fish everywhere and anywhere they want or are asked." is getting old. I challenge you to name a club (co-op) that is doing it and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

And what was the damage caused from that one stocked fish you caught at the Germania Branch mouth? Were there hords of fishermen there too? overfishing of the class A dinks?

 

[afishinado]

Apple: Co-op Nurseries that receive fingerling trout or eggs from the PFBC, raise the trout in a hatchery run by an organization ("club") and stock the trout raised in the hatchery in streams open to the public (ATWs).

Orange: A private "club" that owns or controls (leases) a private (posted) section of stream and purchases trout for stocking "their" stream for members to fish. Many of these sections are Class A streams such as Spruce Creek and quite a few streams in the Poconos.

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:
Apple: Co-op Nurseries that receive fingerling trout or eggs from the PFBC, raise the trout in a hatchery run by an organization ("club") and stock the trout raised in the hatchery in streams open to the public (ATWs).

Mostly correct, but as Maurice said earlier in the thread, coops also stocked non-ATW streams.

These are supposed to be open to the public. But they do not have to be ATW streams.

So, there are many streams that they stock which are not on the list of ATW streams in the regs booklet and on the PFBC website.

These non-ATW streams that they stock are not published anywhere.

Many of these are small streams then the PFBC wants to bother with, because of time and transportation of expense of stocking tiny streams with a big truck.

Many of these streams hold native brook trout.

So, when you go fishing out in the woodsy parts of the state, you cannot assume that a small stream that is not on the stocking list is an unstocked stream. Very often they are stocked by coops. And the coop raised trout often have better color and fins then those raised in the much larger PFBC hatcheries, and telling them apart from wild brookies is not always so easy.

In some mostly forested counties, any stream that is not Class A which is accessible by road, even a narrow rough road, has a strong likelihood of receiving hatchery trout, whether it is on the ATW list or not.

 

[JackM]

::JackM raises yellow flag::

"In some mostly forested counties, any stream that is not Class A which is accessible by road, even a narrow rough road, has a strong likelihood of receiving hatchery trout, whether it is on the ATW list or not."

mostly forested, strong likelihood

Notwithstanding these vagaries, I have my doubts as to the entire paragraph/sentence.

 

[Maurice]

Its called dialing back Jack....

Co-ops stock Class A's (not allowed)

to

Co-ops stock anywhere they please (not without notifying the F&BC)

to

"very often" Co-ops stock a Non ATWs near you that contain Native Brook Trout. (not without notifying the F&BC)

See its all perfectly legal. They are not rogues. If there is a problem it should be brought before the F&BC.

PS, Waiting for that list...

 

[Chaz]

In none of my posts did I saying anything about stocking Class A streams, however 2 of the stream sections that I mentioned were Class A Sections. And in none of the sections of wild trout streams that I've fished and caught stockies was it just one fish, it was always several to many.
That's a problem, and as a member in good standing of T.U. I'm outraged by it. Now I can see why people that fish both stocked streams and un-stocked stream might not care, a fish is a fish, I do care and for folks that target wild trout, we don't want to be catching stocked fish on our favorite streams, be they remote, or running along a road.
The other part of the equation is that club members that fish these streams don't care if they catch a few wild fish and keep them, I know a few very good wild trout streams wrecked by clubs, because they keep everything they catch.

 

[troutbert]

Maurice wrote:
Its called dialing back Jack....

Co-ops stock Class A's (not allowed)

to

Co-ops stock anywhere they please (not without notifying the F&BC)

to

"very often" Co-ops stock a Non ATWs near you that contain Native Brook Trout. (not without notifying the F&BC)

See its all perfectly legal. They are not rogues. If there is a problem it should be brought before the F&BC.

PS, Waiting for that list...

That was my first post on the thread. How could I be "dialing back?"

Also, I haven't said that the stocking I described was illegal, or without PFBC permission.

I simply provided useful information on the situation that exists, because it is useful and of interest to flyfishers.

A lot of people would assume that if you go fish a small stream that is on public forest land, on the natural reproduction list, and not on the ATW list, that the stream is not stocked.

But a very large number of those streams are stocked, and that is worth knowing.

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:
Apple: Co-op Nurseries that receive fingerling trout or eggs from the PFBC, raise the trout in a hatchery run by an organization ("club") and stock the trout raised in the hatchery in streams open to the public (ATWs).

Orange: A private "club" that owns or controls (leases) a private (posted) section of stream and purchases trout for stocking "their" stream for members to fish. Many of these sections are Class A streams such as Spruce Creek and quite a few streams in the Poconos.

Pear: People that do not have any private section of stream, but that buy trout from a private hatchery, stock them in some stream, then fish for them.

 

[JackM]

troutbert wrote:
But a very large number of those streams are stocked, and that is worth knowing.

What is that "large number?"


Also, consider:

"Now I can see why people that fish both stocked streams and un-stocked stream might not care, a fish is a fish, I do care and for folks that target wild trout, we don't want to be catching stocked fish on our favorite streams, be they remote, or running along a road."


You and "folks that target wild trout" may be a miniscule segment of the license-buying whole.

 

[Mike]

Chaz,
The club stocking Hosensack Ck and it's unnamed trib was not in violation of anything relative to rules governing their stockings. Neither stream was designated Class A and, in fact, they stocked the streams prior to the PFBC staff knowing that there was a Class A equivalent biomass in the Hosensack.

Despite the club's history of stocking the Hosensack the stream advanced from Class D or C to a Class A equivalent and, if it were not for the club maintaining landowner relations for the benefit of all anglers, the stream would probably be posted in areas where the club has developed good relations with the owners. This is the very practical and beneficial side of their minimal stocking program in a stream that now has a very good wild trout fishery as well.

You might say that the wild trout population could be better without the stocking, but as on who has fished it, I would say that it does not need to be better in the stretch that I fished. Kick the club out and the proponents of such a move may be cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Perhaps few will then be able to fish it.

Second, AFM's do not determine where clubs stock, but on somewhat unusual occasions we work together to coordinate club and state stocking programs. In my personal experiences this has only occurred in four DH and C&R Areas. Additionally, when a stream has been removed from the general stocking program due to posting we (WCO alone or with suggestion from the AFM) have at times been able to get a club to stock some of the remaining water that is still open to fishing, such as Lancaster County's Climbers and Trout Runs in 2014.

 

[salmonoid]

Mike wrote:
Additionally, when a stream has been removed from the general stocking program due to posting we (WCO alone or with suggestion from the AFM) have at times been able to get a club to stock some of the remaining water that is still open to fishing, such as Lancaster County's Climbers and Trout Runs in 2014.

Do you know what kind of trout were put in Trout Run? I don't think that I even managed to make it out there this year, although I was happy to hear it wasn't going to be stocked any more. But, in perusing some photos of fish allegedly caught from the stream, I saw a picture of a brown, which I was struggling to figure out. If a club stocked it, then perhaps that is the source. Or perhaps the photo was tagged wrong.

 

[troutbert]

I fished a Class A freestoner on public forest land today. And caught stockies.

I have no idea who stocked it.

 

[BrookieChaser]

I attribute a lot of stocking on small freestoners to camp owners.

I do know of one class a section that's stocked over by a local trout club. It's because it's easier access. I just kill all the pelletheads I catch in that section.

 

[JackM]

BrookieChaser wrote:
I attribute a lot of stocking on small freestoners to camp owners.

I do know of one class a section that's stocked over by a local trout club. It's because it's easier access. I just kill all the pelletheads I catch in that section.

If the regulations allow you to kill all the pelletheads, you should do so if you think depriving others of the ability to catch and release said pelletheads is a reasonable moral tradeoff.

Or, you could find one of the vast majority of Class A waters that are not stocked/supplemented.

 

[BrookieChaser]

Jack, I do believe native trout, and wild trout, and their habitat is more important than satisfying someone's need for an instant fishery. The club is breaking a law of stocking in the Class A section, because of ease of access, instead of stocking at the boundary to the ATW. So the pelletheads shouldn't be there in the first place.

I have debated reporting it, but the club does a lot of good for the people that fish for stocked fish in the ATW, so I let it go. I just kill the pelletheads* in the Class A section to save the young of the real trout population from unwarranted stress.

*Disclaimer - All pelletheads were legal to kill, not over daily limit, and were eaten.

 

[fishfuzz]

Can someone please post the section and subsection of Title 30 - The Fish and Boat Code where it states it is illegal to stock over Class A wild trout populations? I also want to know what the fine is for this infraction since one contributor to this thread said a WCO threw the book at someone for engaging in such an activity.

As I see it, co-ops are not running rampant across the state and stocking wherever they want. Yes, there are probably a few problems and a few problems groups. I guess it is similar to the TU chapters that still stock fish.

And hats off to Maurice for acknowledging that fish actually swim!