Challenge to all Trout Camps

[sarce]

I was looking for a list of supposedly allopatric brook trout streams. I see a lot of discussion on them, but I've never seen a list of any sort. My log now says I've fished over 700 wild trout streams in PA in my lifetime, and by number, the majority of those were primarily brook trout streams. I am not 100% sure I have fished ANY truly allopatric streams. There's a few I kind of suspect might be and haven't disproven it, but I can count those on 1 hand.

There are a half dozen in Chester County that I'm aware of. And 2 more where I've only seen one brown ever. But they are all unnamed 1st/2nd order streams with a few dozen trout in each. These are not acidic and have no barriers, but they do flow into a larger stream that is not inhabited by browns. I think there are a couple others in Lancaster Co but I haven't fished them enough to be confident. But that's a decent number of streams in a small geographic region of PA, which makes me think there are more than just a few dozen statewide.

That said, I completely agree with your general point that the vast majority of brook trout populations in the state have brown trout downstream. The situation I described above is the exception. And as such I think should be given extra protection. Yet, in that region, housing developments keep getting plopped on top of them.

 

[troutbert]

I've also been told that some streams in the Moshannon area are allopatric. I can't say I've fished every single one, I've spent relatively little time in that watershed. But Sixmile and Black Bear watersheds definitely have browns, have also got a Tiger in the watershed on a stream I'm yet to actually catch a brown on. These are in the upper end of the Moshannon watershed. For Black Mo, I've caught a brown in Benner Run too, which is an upper end tributary, and a stream I once thought could be allopatric brook trout. I have not yet caught a brown in Rock Run, but that runs in below Benner, so browns certainly have access to the mouth, and I'd be more surprised if there weren't browns up there than if there were.

Rock Run has brown trout in its lower end, near I80. In the middle and upper parts I've caught only brookies.

 

[pcray1231]

Allopatry: Some of the tribs in the upper Schuylkill and Ltl Schuylkill basins, in both cases upstream from Port Clinton to the headwaters.

I certainly believe that is possible. I haven't fished them all. Can say Rattling, the one that comes down along Hawk Mtn road, and the unnamed trib just to the south of that all have browns. Farther up on the Little Skuke drainage, Cold Run obviously does, as well as the main little Skuke, and Owl Creek. On the main Skuke, the main stem has em up past Pottsville and St. Clair. Stony has em, above the lake too. So the main stems and many of the tribs, including ones that run in higher up, in that system have them. If there were a possibility in the Skuke drainage, I'd be looking at above a barrier, and it's possible that barrier could be chemical rather than physical.

Rock Run has brown trout in its lower end, near I80. In the middle and upper parts I've caught only brookies.

Edit, I didn't, I heard of someone that did, looked up the e-mail:

It was supposedly caught on the the Middle Branch. It was years ago, would have been 2003-2006 because that's when I lived in State College. A friend claimed to have caught one on the Middle Branch. I was mildly surprised, but didn't discount his account, and believe him more now than I did then. When I fished it, I didn't catch any browns, but that's hardly proof of anything.

 

[k-bob]

maybe no browns in places like upper section here:

https://files.dep.state.pa.us/water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Class_A_PFBC_Reports/Class_A3/Aylesworth_Creek_28566.pdf

 

[sixfootfenwick]

There are a half dozen in Chester County that I'm aware of. And 2 more where I've only seen one brown ever. But they are all unnamed 1st/2nd order streams with a few dozen trout in each. These are not acidic and have no barriers, but they do flow into a larger stream that is not inhabited by browns. I think there are a couple others in Lancaster Co but I haven't fished them enough to be confident. But that's a decent number of streams in a small geographic region of PA, which makes me think there are more than just a few dozen statewide.

That said, I completely agree with your general point that the vast majority of brook trout populations in the state have brown trout downstream. The situation I described above is the exception. And as such I think should be given extra protection. Yet, in that region, housing developments keep getting plopped on top of them.

Absolutely more than a few dozen.
I'll name one I'm 100 percent certain of.
Elders Run Lancaster County.

Like Pat I've fished nearly a thousand different streams in PA, but I believe there are still allopatric streams.

Evidence of one brown in a stream also isn't evidence it is resident to that stream itself or even a small population reproducing in that stream.

Could be transit for a number of reasons, such as summer temps, either way there are still "brook trout only" streams.

 

[Swattie87]

Rock Run, the one you guys are talking about, has Browns. A good head of them too. I’d venture there’s more Browns than Brookies down by I80.

sarce - I’ve fished every wild Trout stream that is listed in Lancaster County and has at least some public access. Not to burst the bubble, but I’ve either caught a Brown directly in all of them, or caught a Brown in their receiving stream, with no barrier.

 

[Bamboozle]

In a few years when there's another catastrophic flooding event, how does one go about removing the browns and rainbows that have infiltrated your brookie nirvana? Would headlamp and frog gig be the most effective method? If possible, I'd like to have someone respond by attaching at least 40 studies and a minimum of two dozen links that I can look at.

Good luck with your battle against mother nature. She's undefeated.

And don't forget the dufusses that will put browns back into streams where they've been removed because they like them better than brookies keeping in mind it WILL happen just like snakeheads...

 

[Swattie87]

Absolutely more than a few dozen.
I'll name one I'm 100 percent certain of.
Elders Run Lancaster County

There are wild Browns in Middle, below the lake, and in many of its other tribs. Elders has no barrier at its mouth. I’ve never caught a Brown directly in Elders, but, there’s nothing stopping them = not allopatric.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

They’re wild Browns in Middle, below the lake. Elders has no barrier at its mouth. I’ve never caught a Brown directly in Elders, but, there’s nothing stopping them = not allopatric.

You've caught browns in the SGL's?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

As far as I knew there is a small population miles below the lake where there are springs.
Middle creek is laden with nitrate from the lake, they aren't reproducing in the SGL's and are miles separated by warm nitrate water.

 

[pcray1231]

Elders Run Lancaster County

I've never fished it, but if there's no barrier, I have SEVERE doubts on that one. Middle has browns right up to the dam.

Fenwick, I have fished every stream in Chester that's on the natural repro list and has public access, and found browns in every single one. I lived in Coatesville for like a decade.

Kbob, Ayelsworth looks like a possibility, yeah. I have no idea, never fished it. But lots of barriers for sure. Looks like a good possibility.

 

[Swattie87]

As far as I knew there is a small population miles below the lake where there are springs.
Middle creek is laden with nitrate from the lake, they aren't reproducing in the SGL's and are miles separated by warm nitrate water.

If the Stockies can live in that section, the wild Browns can easily. All they need is temporarily hospitable conditions to get to Elders mouth. Eight, or more, months a year those conditions exist. Sorry.

 

[pcray1231]

If the Stockies can live in that section, the wild Browns can easily. All they need is temporarily hospitable conditions to get to Elders mouth. Eight, or more, months a year those conditions exist. Sorry.

Yes, the occasional wild brown is caught right up to the lake.

You've caught browns in the SGL's?

Yes. The one and only time I fished it, in fact.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Yes, the occasional wild brown is caught right up to the lake.


Yes

Wild browns in the average 85 degree august water?

I have never caught or seen a wild brown in the SGL. The nitrate level is too high for viable fish eggs.

I would contact Matt K the watershed specialist. That is interesting news

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Having lived off the bank of Middle Creek in the SGL's for years, I'm shocked.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

At any rate, Elders is truly a brook trout stream. It has no reproducing brown trout population. It should have a barrier. I've said that for years.
It's only a matter of time before the ones miles below move up, or some stocked fish ruin it.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

As anyone ever caught a brown above the first fall at Glen Okono?

 

[pcray1231]

Wild browns in the average 85 degree august water?

I would contact Matt K the watershed specialist. That is interesting news

I didn't say it was in August. It's been a while, it was fall, I believe. But just below the lake, above Elders, yeah. I caught like 1 wild brown. And I even remember thinking this had to have oversummered in Elders. I talked to someone then that knew Middle better, and they told me yeah, there's the occasional brown up to the lake, in the lake, and above the lake. I cannot personally confirm that to be true, and I have never actually fished Elders.

Don't fool yourself, I betcha Elders has browns in it. An extreme minority, sure.

As anyone ever caught a brown above the first fall at Glen Okono?

No. In fact I never fished it. I could see it being allopatric. But the neighboring stream, Jeans, yeah, and way up high, above plenty of falls too, so it wouldn't surprise me if Glen Onoko had them above the falls too. Also wouldn't surprise me if it didn't.

 

[Swattie87]

At any rate, Elders is truly a brook trout stream. It has no reproducing brown trout population. It should have a barrier. I've said that for years.
It's only a matter of time before the ones miles below move up, or some stocked fish ruin it.

Exactly. Not allopatric.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

If all those 2 streams need is a barrier to become allopatric , it should be done and it is a brook trout stream. The barrier isn't the species.

I didn't say it was in August. It's been a while, it was fall, I believe. But just below the lake, above Elders, yeah. I caught like 1 wild brown. And I even remember thinking this had to have oversummered in Elders. But I have never actually fished Elders.

Don't fool yourself, I betcha Elders has browns in it. An extreme minority, sure.


No. In fact I never fished it. I could see it being allopatric. But the neighboring stream, Jeans, yeah, and way up high, above plenty of falls too, so it wouldn't surprise me if Glen Onoko had them above the falls too. Also wouldn't surprise me if it didn't.

Well in 40 years of fishing it a few times a year, I've never seen or caught one.

The point is, any population is Middle is sparse at best. They aren't chalked full right up to the dam in the fall.
If a barrier is all that is needed to ensure it remains so, it should be done.
Same with Glen Okono. There are many streams this could be done.

Instead we are focused on terms, definitions, petitions and large fish.

It's a problem.

I'm in the camp of it's 4th down and time to punt on some streams, others not so much. It's 3rd down on many but we are playing like is 1st down or 4th down .