Can Pennsylvania stock bass and panfish in warm streams?

[PaScoGi]

Listened to Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast past few weeks and they had Kirk Deeter and Bob Mallard on discussing various topics.

Got me to thinking - there are some streams in Pennsylvania that just absolutely do not hold trout once summer comes. For some reason Pennsylvania stocks trout in them, I guess with the idea to get people to fish them opening day and pound them until late May and just keep all of the trout that get caught by anglers.

I have no problem with this, but why wouldn't they also stock bass and panfish in these streams so people can fish them all summer? Wouldn't tourism and bait shops that are close to these streams get more business if there were fish in them in June, July, August, etc.?

Not everyone is a lake type fisher, and not everyone can afford to buy a boat to go bass fishing. And some people (me) don't really like stillwater fishing regardless. And not everyone lives near the Susquehanna River.

So my question is - all these streams that are listed on the PA Trout Stocking List, why can't they be stocked with fish that can survive year round?

Thanks for any help, science and fish biology were never taught to me LOL! But I would love to fish year round on streams not just for trout.

 

[JerryC]

I'd be willing to bet, there are already panfish and bass in those streams. For example, I fish the Wissahickon Creek. Stocked with trout, temperatures in the summer normally wouldn't support trout, but there a places where it is spring fed, and you do get a good holdover population despite the complaints of those who only fish it from opening day till maybe the middle of May and give up because they believe the state didn't stock enough trout or they've all been caught.
There are at least four different sunfish species, bluegill, green, pumpkinseed and redbreast in it. Tack on the smallmouth, the largemouth(it's possible they were stocked at some point), rock bass, the occasional crappie. There's a pretty selection of warm water fish available. I've fished other stocked streams here in SE PA and they hold native, reproducing warm water fish. There's no real need to stock them.

 

[HopBack]

If there are no bass and panfish in a given watershed, it’s probably a safe bet that the watershed can’t support them due to a variety of factors. The pfbc does however stock many, many lakes with Muskie, bass, crappie, catfish etc. best bet if you want to see this is to buy a voluntary warm water permit.

 

[Hilltop]

Most warmwater streams and transitional streams in the state support natural reproduction of warmwater species. Good place to start researching is the pfbc website. They did survey's of warmwater streams years ago; look up biologist reports for your area. After that, just start exploring and fishing.

 

[Dave_W]

Agree with the above.
The PFBC used to stock bass and many other warm water species in local creeks back in the day (including white suckers) but these days this isn't policy unless the waterway is needing some sort of restoration intervention.

We have a zoom post I did last year on fishing small warm water creeks. If you haven't seen it, you might enjoy it. You can find it under the content tab at the top of the page.

 

[Bamboozle]

One of my favorite summer pastimes is "fishing" those warmed up trout streams with poppers and nymphs, wading like I was trout fishing and seeing what I catch.

The action can be relentless with tons of panfish, rock bass, smallmouth, largemouth and fall fish coming to hand with NO stocking required!!

It's a blast!!

 

[Mike]

Dave is correct. I only had SMB stocked in two streams during my career and in both cases I viewed the stockings as restoration efforts in portions of those streams where I believed SMB had been extirpated. Because of dams there was no chance of SMB returning to these stretches from downstream without stocking. Those streams were Pequea Ck and Mill Ck, trib to the Conestoga R, both in Lancaster Co.

 

[PennKev]

Several issues i can see with a widespread warm water stocking program.

Costs. Raising and stocking adult bass, for instance, would be cost prohibitive. Especially on top of the existing trout program.

Demand: I don't see any demand at all for the stocking of warm water fish beyond what's already being done. Particulalry bass and panfish. There is demand for muskie, walleye, and hybrid striper but that has to do with low natural spawning success in many popular waters. In the case of hybrids it is the only way to have a fishery for that species. The reality is that warm water species are available naturally across the state and provide a self sustaining fishery. Trout, in comparison, are not. Or at least that is the perception amongst some anglers.

Long term success and goals: Is the goal to create an immediate fishery? A put and grow fishery? To jump start a naturally supporting fishery? To balance an ecosystem? To slap a band aid on a larger problem? Any of these goals may be difficult to achieve with a stocking program.

 

[PaScoGi]

Thanks all. Great responses, figured there were reasons just never could figure it out why.

 

[Mike]

Side note: Raising LMB to adult size in a hatchery is described in fish culture manuals as being a lost cause due to the frequent development of bass tapeworms.

 

[silverfox]

I just have to reiterate that we can't keep looking at species composition based on a summertime maximum temperature. The biggest browns I've caught in this state came from a "warmwater fishery" that routinely reaches mid to upper 80's in the heat of summer.

Consider that from roughly late September/early October, water temperatures in these "warmwater" streams typically start to decline into trout-tolerant temperatures. They remain at trout-tolerant temperatures from ~October to early June usually. That's 8 or 9 months out of the year that they're habitable for trout. Or only 3 to 4 months out of the year where they're uninhabitable for trout.

Trout use these larger "warmwater" rivers for winter habitat due to relatively mild conditions and an abundance of food. This is likely more true where the tributaries are smaller and anchor ice is a bigger issue. Stream density likely plays a big role in trout movement based on some preliminary information in Maryland.

Shannon White's study on the Loyalsock using tracking telemetry showed that some percentage of the brook trout in feeder streams to the Loyalsock moved down into the river immediately after spawning to over-winter in the river. The sections of the Loyalsock that the brook trout moved into reach temperatures that would kill them in the summer. Again, what causes some percentage of the population to move is not fully understood, but scientists are working to answer that question. I personally believe it's several factors including genetics, stream density, tributary temperatures, food abundance, fish size, and average rainfall/base flow conditions for the year.

I think this gets at the issue of managing waters by watershed rather than small sections of streams. Species composition changes seasonally due to temperatures, spawning, or other environmental or biotic factors. That's true for more than just trout. SMB for example move around a good bit depending on time of year/spawning etc..

Biotic interaction between species is something that is often overlooked, but there's compelling scientific evidence that points to biotic interactions functioning as a multiplier for other environmental factors. i.e., loss of habitat, or water quality is bad for native fish, but when nonnative/competing salmonids are mixed in, it makes the loss of habitat or water quality issues even worse.

So the question is whether we base stocking decisions on the seasonal or temporary use of habitat by species of greatest conservation need (brook trout), or do we simply try to provide the most angling opportunities for any given section of stream? What if we find out that the seasonal use of habitat that is otherwise thought to be "too warm" turns out to be a major contributing factor to a species' population size diversity or even long-term survivability?

 

[dubthethorax]

I live on the EB Perkiomen, which is one of the warmer water creeks you're referencing that's stocked with trout. Similar to what others have said, some trout do hold over in the spring fed sections but besides that, the creek is loaded with bass, panfish, carp, catfish, and even the occasional pickerel. No need to stock it.