Brook Trout population before things were destroyed.

[StarvinMarvin]

There are still waterways today with big brookies that migrate in and out of large systems and Tribs based on water temps. There are still streams around where a 12" brookie is more common than a 3" one.
It will never be as good as it once was but it is not lost.

 

[Cornholio]

"There are still streams around where a 12" brookie is more common than a 3" one."

Not in Pennsylvania.

"It will never be as good as it once was but it is not lost."

Yes it is lost. The Brook Trout fishing that we have today in this state is a mere shadow of what it once was.

 

[salmonoid]

Cornholio wrote:
"There are still streams around where a 12" brookie is more common than a 3" one."

Not in Pennsylvania.

"It will never be as good as it once was but it is not lost."

Yes it is lost. The Brook Trout fishing that we have today in this state is a mere shadow of what it once was.

I don't think there are many streams where a 12" brookie is more common than a 3" one - that implies some sort of weird occurrence where all the YOY have died off, as a population curve would tend to be clustered between 1-2 year old fish and tail off from there.

But, I think it is correct to say that there are streams in PA where 12" brookies are not uncommon. Many streams may have the curve fall off at 8-9" fish, but some have the habitat or some other combination of factors that allow fish to grow to 12" or larger. I agree with Chaz that some of those streams are in SE PA, but I've caught 12" or larger brookies in all areas of the state, except the NE and SW, both regions where I've never really fished a stream that has brookies in it.

While the angling literature mentions the migration of brook trout in pre-logging days, I'm somewhat skeptical of the claims of large quantities of large trout moving out of the bigger loctic systems. Under Behnke's classification of brook trout, our fish fall under the category of " a smaller generalist form that evolved in the small lakes, ponds, rivers, and streams throughout most of the original native range. This generalist form rarely attains sizes larger than 12 in (30 cm) or lives for more than three years." This does not preclude larger brookies from existing or being caught, but puts the tail end of the curve closer to 12" than 18".

I have no doubt that brook trout moved in and out of larger systems but some of the reading I've done suggests that streams like Kettle, Pine and the Loyalsock have always been the realm of the black bass in summer, even before logging. Anglers tend to tell stories (particularly those interested in selling copies of newspapers their articles are published in), so I'm still searching for late 18th or early 19th century scientific literature that documents (more than an anecdotal recollection) scores of 18" brook trout in PA.

 

[troutbert]

salmonoid wrote:

I have no doubt that brook trout moved in and out of larger systems but some of the reading I've done suggests that streams like Kettle, Pine and the Loyalsock have always been the realm of the black bass in summer, even before logging.

What is this literature?

Smallmouth bass were native to the Ohio River drainage. They were not native to the Susquehanna and Delaware River drainages.

So they did not originally exist in Kettle, Pine and Loyalsock.

 

[Cornholio]

There are streams where you CAN catch a 12'' Brookie, but to say it is common is a bit of a stretch. Streams like that are few and far apart.

I have a letter in my desk from a retired PFBC Biologist of nearly 40 years who has surveyed 100's of streams in western and central PA. He told me he has only found 3 Native Brook Trout that were 12'' and they came from some unusually fertile streams.

Regardless of how big brook trout may or may not have grown. My point was that we have lost a lot of Brook Trout Habitat. Including habitat that would have supported bigger Brook Trout. I have read from multiple sources that Brook Trout in Kettle Creek grew to 18 inches.

Black Bass in Kettle and Pine? I don't think they are native to that drainage. My understanding is that they were introduced.

 

[StarvinMarvin]

"Not in Pennsylvania"

Yeah I'm pretty sure it is. To say it is lost means it cannot be found. Well it's out there you just gotta find it. I'm sure when they surveyed they didn't carry there gear 4 miles from the nearest access point to survey. You just have to know where to look. The point about 3" brookies is that most of the fish you catch are 6" plus and the natural reproduction is very good. The YOY fish are mainly food for the bigger brookies and I've seen natives current day as big as 18". The fish grow fast and often times aren't born in the main waterway but in Tribs that are clean and spring fed, when you get 8 or 9 of these Tribs coming together it makes for some quality fishing. Throw in a beaver dam or two and wam. I'm sure there are brookies born in the main system but I'm not sure on their survival as this is where the bigger fish are found. It's amazing what can happen after ceasing the stocking for 20 plus years.

 

[Cornholio]

There is no great unexplored wilderness in Pa with big Native Brookies. If you are seeing "natives" 18 inches long I can assure you that what you are seeing is wild Brown Trout or holdover stocked trout (which can travel long distances).

I have spent the last two decades stomping all over the back country. On an average year I fish about 120 days and I have never seen anything over 12 inches. I have heard stories of Brookies larger than that and in some cases that may be true, but the vast majority of these stories are nothing more than that, just stories. Inexperienced anglers grossly over estimating the size of there catch, mistaking Brown Trout for Brook Trout or catching hold over stocked Brookies.

There are a few exceptions though, Streams in the Cumberland Valley, such as Big Spring Creek is a good example.

 

[afishinado]

(Not counting Big Spring) The largest brookie I have ever caught in PA brook trout streams has been 12" (maybe plus a fraction). Anything bigger than that is very rare.

Think of it like this, both Fredrick and Shaquille O'Neal are both from the same species. There are many millions of people the size of Little Fred, but people the size of Shack are one in a million or more.

 

[moon1284]

I got a 12 incher out of Fishing Creek (the one near state college). I'd bet that drainage has more. 18-inches is pretty big though. An 18-inch native brook trout has to be as least as rare as a 30-inch brown trout.

I only fish big spring a few times a year, but I don't even think I've seen at 18-inch brook trout there.

 

[fisherboy3]

The famous Brodhead Clubs had started back when the Brodhead had a good population of brookies and of good size too. Then the urbanization of the poconos, logging houses ect had killed them off. So the clubs started stocking browns, bows, and now big brookies because they are no longer there.

 

[StarvinMarvin]

I have seen an 18" brookie from Big Spring it's on a biologist report on PFBC website.

Well I can tell you they weren't Browns cause they came to hand and no doubt they were brookies! They're the ones with the blue and red halos with orange white and black tipped fins right?

In fact just this year one day, my friend and I were able to land 5 brookies over 12" this year from one stream and not even the one I'm referring to. Sure we had put in about 3 miles of water but we got them. And the last hole we fished we got 2. A fellow I follow on Instagram catches some very big natives and very concistently from SEPA.

I'm really glad you think there is no "great unexplored wildernes" in Pa filled with big natives cause there is. And it's overlooked and I'm glad I didn't listen to the guys that said "there's no fish down there"

I don't overestimate fish that's for sure and there are no Browns in this particular waterway. And it hasn't been stocked in almost 30 years. It is possible that a stockie could find its way but it would be very very tough and I've never caught any that I thought were stocked fish.

 

[afishinado]

Big brook trout are rare. In PA, 12" is a big brook trout. A stream that gives up multiple big brook trout is very rare, but I'm sure such streams exist.

Big Spring is one of the most fertile streams on the planet. The survey, out of more than 1,000 brook trout captured, recorded one 18" fish and a handful of fish 15-16" fish (a Shaquille O'Neil fish...stocked trout lineage?...no one knows). It's anyone's guess as to the lineage of the remaining brook trout population in the east after so many streams have been stocked.

Wild trout streams should never be stocked and believe it or not, I would rather see brown and rainbows stocked in our streams rather than brook trout.

Long and short, we all should do what we can to preserve what is left of the native brookie population and try to increase its range.

Big Spring Survey 2015

 

[Cornholio]

Where is this wilderness? The most remote part of Pennsylvania is the Quehanna Wild Area followed by the Hammersley Wild area. You are never more than 3 miles from a road. I can hike that distance in an hour.

 

[Cornholio]

"Long and short, we all should do what we can to preserve what is left of the native brookie population and try to increase its range."

I agree, I am a bit extreme in my views compared to most anglers, but I wish the PFBC would try and eradicate Brown Trout from streams that historically held Brook Trout and still can support them, and then build barriers at the mouths.

South Carolina and some western states have done this with success.

 

[Chaz]

Cornholio wrote:
"There are still streams around where a 12" brookie is more common than a 3" one."

Not in Pennsylvania.

"It will never be as good as it once was but it is not lost."

Yes it is lost. The Brook Trout fishing that we have today in this state is a mere shadow of what it once was.

Oh yes there are streams around that have more big brook trout than small ones. Even in SE PA they exist. One stream I fished my fishing buddy and I caught about 150 brook trout between 9 and 17 inches. This was later substantiated when PFBC did a survey there later that same year. On that particular trip we only caught a few brookies under 9 inches.
Phillip Tomb wrote in his book "Pioneer Life; 30 Years a Hunter" about catching brook trout in Pine Creek during the summer both at a weir they built and fishing. They ranged to 5 pounds. The time period he wrote about was before 1850.

 

[StarvinMarvin]

It is no where near the Hammersly or Quehanna wild areas.
I'm sure I'm not the only one whose ever fished it, but Im sure the ones who have are as tight lipped as I am (or at least I hope so). Its paralleled by a forest road but only accessible by vehicle to state forest rangers and well workers.

 

[pcray1231]

There are no "unexplored" waters in PA. There are waters that have been "forgotten" by most, or assumed to be nothing special and thus not worth the effort.

 

[SteveG]

That large brookie in the pic of the BS survey could be a stocker (look at the fins). As far as I'm aware, BS is stocked only with brookies, to protect the heritage strain lol. BS's wild brookies are much prettier.

Even a stream as fertile as BS will have hindered brook trout growth due to farm runoff, hydrocarbons from the road, etc. That's why the rainbows will always have the upper hand. Brook trout are very sensitive. I believe that's why relatively remote, infertile, but very clean and cold, water can still produce nice brook trout. There's more to it than pH.

 

[pcray1231]

I don't frequent limestone brookie waters like Big Spring or Fishing Creek. So were talking about smallish infertile freestoners. I don't doubt bigger fish exist in more fertile environments, like limestone waters or the occasional lake/big river run fish.

I'm also being honest. I've seen a few pictures of 8-9 inch fish with a claim of being 11 or 12 on this board. Note your typical stocked brookie is usually right around 10.

I've fished several hundred of these streams and caught lots of trout. 9-10 inches is fairly common, meaning in many streams you can EXPECT a fish or 3 each outing. Other places they're trophies, but exist. Overall, these are big, but not all that rare.

10-11 inches is the fish of a maybe a season, but not of a lifetime.

My largest to date was a hair under 12.

The largest I've seen was 12 1/2. A buddy caught it with me present. We measured. We got 3 over 10 that day.

When people start talking 13 or above, I think either lake or big river influenced, limestone, stocked, or gross exaggeration. I don't think they really exist as residents in small freestoners that we think of when we speak of brookie waters.

 

[Cornholio]

"There are no "unexplored" waters in PA. There are waters that have been "forgotten" by most, or assumed to be nothing special and thus not worth the effort."

Yes, that is true and a lot of those streams are quality fisheries, but that wasn't exactly what I meant.

My point was that there is no vast wilderness with virgin water. And any stream in PA is easily accessible within a relatively short hike through the woods.

Are there streams that still produce bigger than average brookies? sure. Are those streams common? absolutely not.

As far as a stream that has more 12'' brookies than 3'' brookies. That seems out of whack to me.