Broad head Analomik Access - newly posted

[MDBones]

Quick question for those familiar with the Brodhead - a couple of weeks ago I was fishing upstream of the high bridge from the railroad tracks side of the river and had a landowner inform me that I was trespassing as he owned both sides of the bank. I apologized and moved upstream an eight of a mile or so and continued fishing into evergreen.

I returned yesterday and what seems like a mile of the stream has newly posted no trespassing signs on both sides of the river (a&b LLC). Anyone one have further info regarding if this group has exclusive rights to both sides of the river....

Regards
MDBones

 

[lycoflyfisher]

The county may have an online parcel map for you to look at and see if the same landowner owns both sides of the creek. If so by pa law they can restrict access.

 

[Millsertime]

http://www.paflyfish.com/forums/Open-Forums/Fly-Fishing-Locations/Frankstown-Branch---Serious-Issue-With-Landowner---Access/30,44220,0,105,0,0,ASC.html


Post # 107 has map parcels.....


EDIT** - Link is broken but subject of post was Frankstown Branch Serious issue with landowner... Search that and you'll find the thread which was hijacked to the Brodhead.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Are you talking above PENNDOT yard where the high bridge is or upstream near Cherry Lane bridge? The latter has been discussed here a lot. That guy does own the land, except the around the bridge, which is owned by county and/or railroad.

Posting on the RR side further downstream, say below the bar to PENNDOT, is new to me.

 

[Mike]

If the property is within a section that is stocked by the PFBC, I recommend contacting the regional AFM directly or the county WCO via the NE Regional Law Enforcement Office. If the WCO has not already spoken with the landowner to assess the situation and if the property is within a stocked section he/she will most likely do so if made aware of the situation. Posting often reduces trout allocations and frequencies and if there is enough it may cause revisions to stocked trout section limits or loss of an entire section, not just the specific posted stretch, from the program

 

[Jaybird]

I like that the guy decided to post it after they float stocked it 3 weeks ago , what incredible timing ! Also up on the Forever Green Section now posted from the Cell Tower back , that's a new one , at least for me .

 

[afishinado]

Millsertime wrote:
http://www.paflyfish.com/forums/Open-Forums/Fly-Fishing-Locations/Frankstown-Branch---Serious-Issue-With-Landowner---Access/30,44220,0,105,0,0,ASC.html


Post # 107 has map parcels.....


EDIT** - Link is broken but subject of post was Frankstown Branch Serious issue with landowner... Search that and you'll find the thread which was hijacked to the Brodhead.

Here is the past thread about Brodhead Access

 

[MDBones]

Thanks very helpful. Also just to clarify - I completely respect a landowners right to restrict fishing on property that they own, and I want no part of that water - As I look at the those maps its clear that F&PV LLC does indeed own the land on the side of the stream across from theRR. However, It appears that The Monroe Rail Road Authority owns that land on tracks side all the way to the bank. . Downstream its clearer that the Mennoite camp owns both sides and if they wanted to post - They could do so.

Is it reasonable to assume that the Monroe RR Authority owns from the tracks to middle of the river as well?

MDBones

 

[Fredrick]

I don't want to hijack this thread but does anyone know where I could find one of these parcel maps for DELCO

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Based on what you shared, unlike upstream which was discussed before, this owner does not seem to own the RR side as he claims. The number of homeless villages rises and falls back there with the economy, and the high school kids make swimming holes (even a makeshift dock down there not long ago). Like you, I would just move on, but a younger me would encourage him to call the police on me....

 

[MDBones]

few hundred yards upstream from the From the PennDot Parking all the way to just past the old iron structure that spans the RR tracks -two layers of signs posted up against the tracks, and then down by the river - just so you do not miss them

 

[MBWCC]

PA Department of Conservation & Natural Resources apparently has historical data which would establish the Brodhead Creek as a navigable water. This would mean that in accordance with PA law no landowner owns any portion of the stream bottom and anyone may walk between the mean high water marks or float the stream.

If you need clarification I would call DCNR and ask to speak to someone in the legal department to see if they care to help you.

 

[Bamboozle]

Good lord, that navigability thing again... ;-)

No reason to speculate. Here is a link to the Monroe County Public GIS Parcel Map:

http://www.monroegis.org/myiDVViewer/map/13c626a56e926e3e/Public

If the link doesn't get you what you are after, clicking around on the Monroe County, PA webpage using "Parcel Map" as your search criteria should get you all the ownership info you are after.

All the property lines are there and a click will tell you who owns what.

In regards to other county’s maps, specifically Delco. As a former Delco resident, I can proudly say once again, Delaware County, PA is in the dark ages so if you want property parcel information, you will end up in Media doing your searches.

Fortunately, many other counties in PA have all of their information online and it is easy to get ownership information. I use the maps all the time to know who to ask for permission to access private property because I take nothing for granted.

Bottom line: With an ever-dwindling amount of access becoming the norm as parcels are passed-on, sold, sub-divided or posted, knowing how to access property ownership information is something all anglers should familiarize themselves with because all it takes is a couple of self-righteous A-holes to **** off a land owner and lose a few more spots to fish.

You can't rant and rail all you want about 500 year navigability laws, high water marks or the way you think things should be. Unless you are a billionaire with a law firm at your disposal you will lose those battles in Pennsylvania anywhere but on the major rivers.

In the meantime, I prefer to keep the peace and move on to other spots if necessary.

 

[PALongbow]

Hold on there....A creek must be deemed navigable by a court of law otherwise its non-navigable. I don't care as to what the state says or in their opinion states....the law is the law. Also I don't see on the land owners deed where the state owns the creek bottom or the bank. If the state tells anyone that a creek is navigable and never established as such by a court of law then they are only stating that in their opinion and not from a legal standpoint. I would also ask for the states proof in regards to ownership. For some reason you may never see proof that the state owns the creek. In 'ones opinion' doesn't count. Also whatever happened to asking landowners to fish?? Its a lost art I guess....

Ron

 

[Jaybird]

If I'm trespassing it's a crime ? Ok that's the law . If I put up posted signs on land that dosent belong to me , shouldn't who ever posted those signs be held to some kind of judgement? Seems to me it's easy to toss up a sign here or there without checking the actual property lines and that sucks .

 

[afishinado]

MBWCC wrote:
PA Department of Conservation & Natural Resources apparently has historical data which would establish the Brodhead Creek as a navigable water. This would mean that in accordance with PA law no landowner owns any portion of the stream bottom and anyone may walk between the mean high water marks or float the stream.

If you need clarification I would call DCNR and ask to speak to someone in the legal department to see if they care to help you.

True.

The link below is the list of publicly owned stream beds aka navigable waterways as listed by the PA DCNR.

http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

The state of PA maintains this list, but if not previously contested and settled in a PA court, any waterway on the list can be challenged, added or deleted at any time (see last page for explanation).

 

[Bamboozle]

Mike wrote:
If the property is within a section that is stocked by the PFBC, I recommend contacting the regional AFM directly or the county WCO via the NE Regional Law Enforcement Office. If the WCO has not already spoken with the landowner to assess the situation and if the property is within a stocked section he/she will most likely do so if made aware of the situation. Posting often reduces trout allocations and frequencies and if there is enough it may cause revisions to stocked trout section limits or loss of an entire section, not just the specific posted stretch, from the program

Mike’s suggestion is the best advice for this particular situation, call Regional Law Enforcement and inquire because of the stocking ramifications or waste your time and money taking up the big fight on navigability.

In the meantime, I took the time to peruse the Monroe County Parcel Map. Ironically, the way the PUBLIC GIS map is drawn; it shows the property of F & PV LLC as extending EAST to the WEST bank of the Brodhead while the Monroe County RR Authority extends WEST to the EAST bank of the Brodhead.

However on the same map, the Brodhead itself in this area doesn’t show any ownership information which ISN’T definitive. Further inquiries with the folks at the Monroe County Assessor's Office regarding these parcels revealed nothing definite short of coordinates and marker locations from multiple deeds that would require a lot of time to research just to prove or disprove a point, best resolved by the PFBC because that area is stocked.

I had a similar situation on another stream where I was harassed by a landowner on the far bank. I knew he didn’t own the property but rather than challenge him, I called the local WCO and gave him the real property owner’s info. I got a call back from the WCO that the real landowner had no issues with access and the WCO straightened out the overzealous dude I encountered.

In the case of this part of the Brodhead, if the PFBC contacts the entity who posted the property as to the new restriction of access and how it would affect future stockings, the landowner would more or less have to prove ownership (or not) which would result in either no more stocking between Cherry Lane & 5th Street or renewed access.

BTW – Assume nothing in regards to RR property. Typically, railroads own about 20 feet on either side of the rail-head HOWEVER, they don’t want you on their property either. How aggressively they go after trespassers depends on the railroad.

In addition, the management and enforcement of trespassing issues on that RR ROW may not be with the listed owner, the Monroe County RR Authority. I am sure there is a lessee on those tracks who I believe is the Delaware–Lackawanna Railroad, part of the Gennesse Valley Transportation Company based in Batvia, NY. In other words, don't assume because a Monroe County agency is listed as the owner that it is public property. The lessee or actual railroad operating on those tracks would be the folks that either have an issue with you crossing their tracks or not.

Bottom line, before you take a moral stand and question whether a landowner has the right to post land, make sure ALL landowners whose land you cross don’t have an issue with trespassing.

 

[MDBones]

O.K - Thanks to all who responded, very helpful. The DCNR clearly lists the Brodhead as navigable (not arguing if its been proven in a court of law - simply stating the published navigable rivers in Pa).

Middle Delaware-Mongaup-Brodhead. NJ, NY, PA. 02040104 Brodhead Creek - "The waterways identified herein as having publicly-owned streambeds have been compiled by the Commonwealth over time from various sources. Identification is based upon information believed to be reliable and persuasive evidence of such ownership. The identification of a waterway as having a publicly-owned streambeds herein is not intended to be a final determination that the waterway is navigable under state or federal law. The Commonwealth reserves the right to add or remove waterways identified as having publicly-owned streambeds as additional information becomes available."


So the advice listed below seems reasonable - "The rail authority only owns approximately 23' from each side of the rails, there is also an easement associated with Brodhead Creek as a navigable waterway (associated with the ordinary high water mark), but there is a strip of ground between them that is private property. The section of creek can be accessed from the ForEvergreen Property to the north or the Pinebrook Park to the south, but to be safe you should probably "keep your feet wet" through that area.


Thanks for the guidance, will help me stay within the lawl!

MD Bones

 

[Bamboozle]

The DCNR info means NOTHING, the high water/low water/easement misinformation means NOTHING and the navigability thing means NOTHING unless YOU decide to challenge it in court and prevail against MANY landowners & private clubs that have restricted access on the Brodhead for centuries.

Trust me, if you access the creek from legal access above or below and the person who posted DOES own both sides and calls the cops for defiant trespass, you WILL get a citation.

Don't believe me, try the same thing on the club water up in Henryville on the Brodhead or the Paradise Branch which is also on the DCNR list.

It is the identical situation on the same "navigable waterway" except they have private security to chase you out or detain you for the cops.

Do yourself a favor before you get busted, call the WCO!

 

[PALongbow]

The state or even local law enforcement can not determine navigability unless a court of law is involved in its navigability classification. A stream has to be deemed navigable by a court of law otherwise its non-navigable by law. Anything else is just opinion of those that think they know the status of a stream which could lead to getting people into trouble with trespassing. I would say that if there are posted signs stay away or at least ask permission and please don't assume that if you are standing in the creek that is okay to be there. If the creek is non-navigable by law and the landowner owns both sides of the creek then the creek bed is also owned by the landowner and you would be considered a trespasser. I could probably write a book on this topic with fact and not opinion.

Ron