Broad head Analomik Access - newly posted

Pretty sure the Brodheads navigability starts below the Paradise. But thats just from word of mouth. I guide the area, especially on the brodhead. In the next year or so you probably will see changes to the access currently posted up in Analomink. That came from a local guy who is involved VERY deeply in TU, fly fishing and clubs up there. It is in the works. Alot of people are upset and aggravted that this guy bought the property and posted that whole entire stretch.
 
I heard from a very reliable source that the signs along that side of the creek are coming down or have come down. Have not been up to confirm. Anybody?
 
It's pretty darn clear... A stream is deemed non-navigable by LAW unless deemed navigable by a COURT OF LAW. There is no grey area in this like people want to think. If you can't understand this law then test the water and trespass and see what happens. I don't see any names on my deed other than my own so that means until the court rules that the state owns the land, its mine and you are considered a trespasser. Stop being idiots about this issue....you have plenty of opportunity to fish open water in PA. If a landowner doesn't want you on their land then stay off and respect the landowners wishes. Understand this....you are not entitled to anything unless you own it. This is why land is being posted up in PA due to the entitled mindset.

Ron
 
PALongbow wrote:
It's pretty darn clear... A stream is deemed non-navigable by LAW unless deemed navigable by a COURT OF LAW. There is no grey area in this like people want to think. If you can't understand this law then test the water and trespass and see what happens. I don't see any names on my deed other than my own so that means until the court rules that the state owns the land, its mine and you are considered a trespasser. Stop being idiots about this issue....you have plenty of opportunity to fish open water in PA. If a landowner doesn't want you on their land then stay off and respect the landowners wishes. Understand this....you are not entitled to anything unless you own it. This is why land is being posted up in PA due to the entitled mindset.

Ron

What's that have to do with me saying that I heard the landowner was reached and the signs are coming down? It sounds like people did the right thing here and used TU and the Commish to intercede and educate the landowner (it goes both ways, I think). He posted land that has been stocked by the Commish for years and years, and maybe he didn't know.
 
PALongbow wrote:
It's pretty darn clear... A stream is deemed non-navigable by LAW unless deemed navigable by a COURT OF LAW. There is no grey area in this like people want to think. If you can't understand this law then test the water and trespass and see what happens. I don't see any names on my deed other than my own so that means until the court rules that the state owns the land, its mine and you are considered a trespasser. Stop being idiots about this issue....you have plenty of opportunity to fish open water in PA. If a landowner doesn't want you on their land then stay off and respect the landowners wishes. Understand this....you are not entitled to anything unless you own it. This is why land is being posted up in PA due to the entitled mindset.

Ron

Is there a list available of those streams that have been deemed navigable by a court?
 
franklin wrote:
PALongbow wrote:
It's pretty darn clear... A stream is deemed non-navigable by LAW unless deemed navigable by a COURT OF LAW. There is no grey area in this like people want to think. If you can't understand this law then test the water and trespass and see what happens. I don't see any names on my deed other than my own so that means until the court rules that the state owns the land, its mine and you are considered a trespasser. Stop being idiots about this issue....you have plenty of opportunity to fish open water in PA. If a landowner doesn't want you on their land then stay off and respect the landowners wishes. Understand this....you are not entitled to anything unless you own it. This is why land is being posted up in PA due to the entitled mindset.

Ron

Is there a list available of those streams that have been deemed navigable by a court?

The only list of publicly owned streambeds is the one listed by the State of PA > http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

Anyone landowner can challenge the Commonwealth of PA in court and prove they own the streambed and not the Commonwealth.
 
afishinado wrote:


The only list of publicly owned streambeds is the one listed by the State of PA > http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

Anyone landowner can challenge the Commonwealth of PA in court and prove they own the streambed and not the Commonwealth.

My understanding and recommendations from lawyers and state officials has always been that you can use this list, but if charged with trespassing burden of proof would be on you in court. There is only a select few cases that have been proven in court than the obvious major rivers across the state.
 
lycoflyfisher wrote:
afishinado wrote:


The only list of publicly owned streambeds is the one listed by the State of PA > http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

Anyone landowner can challenge the Commonwealth of PA in court and prove they own the stream bed and not the Commonwealth.

My understanding and recommendations from lawyers and state officials has always been that you can use this list, but if charged with trespassing burden of proof would be on you in court. There is only a select few cases that have been proven in court than the obvious major rivers across the state.

^ No doubt true. But a landowner on one of the listed streams is always free to challenge the list and prove they own it in court.

The only two that have been challenged in the last two decades or so have been the Little J and the Lehigh River. Both were proven to be navigable/public stream beds.

Most private citizens do not want to and/or have the resources to challenge in court. The State may or may not join in the court challenge. The previous two cases were supported by the Commonwealth.
 
I agree with what your saying and in some cases know of anglers who purposely put themselves in situations to agitate landowners who try and post a stream. All I am saying is some wisdom needs to be taken by both parties on when they would choose to fight one of these situations. In significant cases you might get some support from the commonwealth, others not so much. In the event of an encounter with an influential landowner the situation could potentially be driven into greater spotlight and not necessarily for the better.
 
troutbert wrote:
PALongbow wrote:

A stream is deemed non-navigable by LAW unless deemed navigable by a COURT OF LAW.

This statement is simply not true.

Though correct, you’re starting to sound entitled tb. ;-)

 
A lot of times people have the 3 strikes and you're out rule so I wait until the 3rd time a landowner tells me to get off his property to take him seriously.
 
I wish the government would take 50 ft or more on each bank of every waterway in the country and create a buffer with trees and plants and access for the public. I know this would not be popular with many landowners but think about the long term effects this would have for the environment. Talk about a wonderful restoration project! Land is routinely taken using eminent domain laws for all sorts of projects but this would be a very worthwhile use of that method of taking property.
I have always believed that all waterways should be protected more than they are and also open to the public. Some things are just too important to be private property.
 
afishinado wrote:
lycoflyfisher wrote:
afishinado wrote:


The only list of publicly owned streambeds is the one listed by the State of PA > http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_009715.pdf

Anyone landowner can challenge the Commonwealth of PA in court and prove they own the stream bed and not the Commonwealth.

My understanding and recommendations from lawyers and state officials has always been that you can use this list, but if charged with trespassing burden of proof would be on you in court. There is only a select few cases that have been proven in court than the obvious major rivers across the state.

^ No doubt true. But a landowner on one of the listed streams is always free to challenge the list and prove they own it in court.

The only two that have been challenged in the last two decades or so have been the Little J and the Lehigh River. Both were proven to be navigable/public stream beds.

Most private citizens do not want to and/or have the resources to challenge in court. The State may or may not join in the court challenge. The previous two cases were supported by the Commonwealth.

That's my understanding and reason I asked the question. The implication is that by publishing the list the state would be willing to support any challenges in court. Hopefully the list is enough to convince a landowner any challenge would be fruitless.
 
larkmark wrote:
I wish the government would take 50 ft or more on each bank of every waterway in the country and create a buffer with trees and plants and access for the public. I know this would not be popular with many landowners but think about the long term effects this would have for the environment. Talk about a wonderful restoration project! Land is routinely taken using eminent domain laws for all sorts of projects but this would be a very worthwhile use of that method of taking property.
I have always believed that all waterways should be protected more than they are and also open to the public. Some things are just too important to be private property.

That's so unworkable on so many levels I can't even begin to list them. The only one who would benefit are lawyers.
 
larkmark wrote:
I wish the government would take 50 ft or more on each bank of every waterway in the country and create a buffer with trees and plants and access for the public. I know this would not be popular with many landowners but think about the long term effects this would have for the environment. Talk about a wonderful restoration project! Land is routinely taken using eminent domain laws for all sorts of projects but this would be a very worthwhile use of that method of taking property.
I have always believed that all waterways should be protected more than they are and also open to the public. Some things are just too important to be private property.

great idea, until you realize how many roads, houses, septic systems, outbuildings, and other structures exist w/in 50' of a stream. You would also then have to define a stream, ie perennial, intermittent, ephemeral, watershed size etc. The legal definition of a stream varies state to state. Not to mention push back from landowners...
 
I would like to see the state take your home by eminent domain and then you will sit on here and complain about government over reach. Stop it with all the hear say for goodness sake. It's the LAW which I think some of you don't adhere to regardless...a stream is non-navigable by law unless deemed navigable by a court of law. If you entitled fisherman want to test it go for it but I know where it ends up and it won't be good for you having a trespass violation or even worst criminal trespass or a landowner pressing for harassment charges because your being a jerk. There is no grey areas as some would want to think....Fish somewhere else.

Ron
 
From a legal perspective, there’s a lot of interesting ways some of this could play out. Not all of the risk necessarily lies with the alleged “trespasser” in the case of a stream that has not been validated one way or the other through the courts already.

In order to get the ball rolling, the “trespasser” likely has to be caught more than once by a landowner. Assuming everyone is being civil and polite, I think most (not all) of the time when law enforcement is called out for an alleged trespassing violation for the first time, they typically (again, not all of the time) handle the situation via a conversation both with the landowner and the “trespasser”, but don’t issue any citations. If called again for the same alleged violation, I think it’s likely the “trespasser” gets a citation, even if they make the “public streambed” argument. Most law enforcement officers aren’t aware of that doctrine, but they do understand the rather simple trespassing laws in PA. They already warned the “trespasser”, so this time they get a citation. There’s other ways this could play out, but I think this is the most likely course most of the time. Ron is probably right I think that the private property argument wins out, at least initially.

The “trespasser” then has to challenge the citation. This is where things get pricey, and most normal people will just punt and pay the fine and/or see if the local DJ/magistrate will drop the charge, and everyone moves on. If the “trespasser” does challenge however, things could get interesting. If there is support from the state, and other pro public land sportsmen groups there could be funding for the “trespasser” to move forward. If the state becomes involved, I think one possibility is that the state sues the landowner for improperly enforcing posted property (the streambed) on what the state believes is public property…hence the list they’ve published. If it hasn’t been validated via the courts, it’s gray, to varying degrees. Things could get messy and expensive for the landowner here too is the point.

FWIW - I don’t recall any cases that have gone through the courts where the landowner’s private property argument won out over the public streambed argument. Are there examples of this anyone knows? With every one that makes it through as the streambed being public, there’s increasing precedent for this outcome on future cases.

Who wants to deal with this mess though?…I don’t think most anglers, or landowners want anything to do with this. Anglers just want to fish and be left alone, and can do so in countless stretches of clearly public land in PA, without the potential of a hassle. Landowners just want to enjoy their property without intrusion. I get it.
 
Afish that really doesn't clear anything up in the situation being discussed. Swattie's post above gives a pretty good layout of how any challenge to establish court ruling on a specific stream is likely to play out in PA. As much as many riparian landowners, and river users would like this to be clarified, that is not likely to happen in PA in any foreseeable future. So unless you care enough about access to a specific stream section and are willing to coordinate legal and financial support prior to getting arrested, then we should respect the land owner and ask permission or fish many of the waters available for public use across the state.
 
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