Broad head Analomik Access - newly posted

[troutbert]

PALongbow wrote:

A stream has to be deemed navigable by a court of law otherwise its non-navigable by law.

If the navigability of a stream has not been determined by a court, then its navigability status is UNKNOWN.

When it's disputed in court, and the court rules, then the stream's status changes from unknown to either navigable or non-navigable.

This was what happened in the case of the Little Juniata River.

 

[Swattie87]

PALongbow wrote:
I could probably write a book on this topic with fact and not opinion.

I was hoping you’d write your book on the entitlement epidemic first. I was really looking forward to that one.

 

[Swattie87]

troutbert wrote:

If the navigability of a stream has not been determined by a court, then its navigability status is UNKNOWN.

When it's disputed in court, and the court rules, then the stream's status changes from unknown to either navigable or non-navigable.

This was what happened in the case of the Little Juniata River.

^This is the most succinct and accurate description of the status quo. If it hasn’t been tried in court, and you trespass on a stream, or post and prosecute someone for trespassing, you risk being the court case for that stream.

As I’m only ever the angler in this scenario (I don’t own streamfront property anywhere), my solution is to only fish on public lands or private areas where I know for certain I’m welcome to be fishing there.

 

[moon1284]

On my property I put up posted signs along the road, ripped down the yellow pfr signs, and put up several CCTV cameras.

When I see people anchor on my side of the river on the app on my phone I usually run outside and throw rocks at them. If im not home i dial 911 immediately. There is nothing I hate more than other people fishing on my property for my fish.

 

[ryansheehan]

moon1284 wrote:
On my property I put up posted signs along the road, ripped down the yellow pfr signs, and put up several CCTV cameras.

When I see people anchor on my side of the river on the app on my phone I usually run outside and throw rocks at them. If im not home i dial 911 immediately. There is nothing I hate more than other people fishing on my property for my fish.

When do you fire the warning shots??

 

[acesedgley]

Ryan, thanks for the LOL....first in awhile!

 

[PALongbow]

UNKNOWN equates to non-navigable because the landowner pays taxes on the stream bed and it is also in the deed as such. There is no such thing as unknown in regards to land ownership including abandoned rail road and canals. Trust me I have been down this road and understand the laws.

Ron

 

[afishinado]

From the PA DCNR site:

PA DCNR List of Publically Owned Streambeds

PA DCNR Map of Publically Owned Streambeds

Interesting history. PA law on ownership of streambeds summarized >

Pennsylvania Summarized.

Navigable Streams: Beds and banks thereof to low-water mark are
owned by the Commonwealth, and that means the entire length of suchstreams including, arguably, headwater rivulets.

The private ownership of the intervening space between high- and low-water mark is subject to the right of public passage over it in high water.

Non-Navigable Streams: Beds and banks thereof may be owned
privately. Carson v. Blazer (“when a stream is altogether unfit for public navigation, it is the subject of private property, but otherwise it is not.”)

Lehigh
Falls Fishing Club v. Andrejewski (“all parties agree that under the law . . the beds of non-navigable waterways are owned by the property owners of the land along the waterways.”)
Substrata of the Beds and Banks of Navigable and Non-Navigable
Streams: We have found no decision of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania that addresses the ownership of the substrata of the beds and banks of navigable streams.

Link to source> http://www.emlf.org/clientuploads/directory/whitepaper/Mcelwee_11.pdf

 

[Bamboozle]

Will whomever who thinks their DCNR list will allow them to legally trespass on posted land in the Brodhead watershed please tell me the date, time & place they plan to trespass so I drive up and watch the fun.

I also will buy that same person a few pints and dinner at Newberry's if the Stroud Township cops are called and they look at the owner of the property and the DCNR list and say something to effect, "Yup, according to this list you can trespass."

This offer is also good for two to three additional dinners & drinks if we then go up to the Henryville waters and the same thing happens up there on the private Brodhead & Paradise stretches.

Give it up already with the public streambed nonsense on the Brodhead...

...it ain't the Lehigh, Little J, Delaware, Susquehanna or them Yinzer rivers. ;-)

 

[PALongbow]

Yes there is many in this state that are misinformed about navigability and trespassing. If I had a dollar for all the times when people told me ... "i'm in the creek and can be there" I could probably retire early. I then have to school them on navigability and land ownership and how they have obtained bad information which could lead to trespassing fines. I could even go further back and school them on land ownership information that was implemented prior to and post Revolutionary War but don't need to bore people with those details that are also part of our rich history of river and stream ownership.

Ron

 

[KGStine]

ryansheehan wrote:

When do you fire the warning shots??

I have seen a no trespassing sign with an addendum that says.

"Due to the rise in the price of ammunition, warning shots will no longer be fired"

 

[afishinado]

PALongbow wrote:
Yes there is many in this state that are misinformed about navigability and trespassing. If I had a dollar for all the times when people told me ... "i'm in the creek and can be there" I could probably retire early. I then have to school them on navigability and land ownership and how they have obtained bad information which could lead to trespassing fines. I could even go further back and school them on land ownership information that was implemented prior to and post Revolutionary War but don't need to bore people with those details that are also part of our rich history of river and stream ownership.

Ron

It's not boring for info to be shared. I keep hearing about these laws, but can't find anything about it.

The last two tests of the law were cases on the Little J and the Lehigh River.

Both cases were settled in favor of public ownership of the streambed.

Please post info which contradicts the info provided by the PA DCNR and public streambeds.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

information on PFBC website, it could be clarified but gives a decent overview of stream ownership in pa.

https://www.fishandboat.com/LearningCenter/FAQs/Pages/PublicAccess.aspx

 

[afishinado]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
information on PFBC website, it could be clarified but gives a decent overview of stream ownership in pa.

https://www.fishandboat.com/LearningCenter/FAQs/Pages/PublicAccess.aspx

Yes, I've seen the link. The long and short of it all is unless and until the status of the waterway in question (for being a publicly owned streambed) is challenged in court and resolved, the only indication of its status is the PA DNCR list which is untested for the most part.

There are plenty of places open to fishing, but anyone is free to make a challenge. But I suggest, like others, to research the situation first, maybe call the local WCO before deciding to test the waters...so to speak.

 

[franklin]

PALongbow wrote:
Yes there is many in this state that are misinformed about navigability and trespassing. If I had a dollar for all the times when people told me ... "i'm in the creek and can be there" I could probably retire early. I then have to school them on navigability and land ownership and how they have obtained bad information which could lead to trespassing fines. I could even go further back and school them on land ownership information that was implemented prior to and post Revolutionary War but don't need to bore people with those details that are also part of our rich history of river and stream ownership.

Ron

Yes there are a lot of myths around regarding stream access. But aren't the vast majority of those who decide to do a little research going to find the PFBC lists that Afisninado listed above and use that as their guide?

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Most wont do the research necessary to find those lists! No where in pa unless you really screw up are trespass charges going to stick if your caught the first time there. Unless you climb a clearly posted fence or other blatantly obvious barrier your not going to be in significant trouble. In most cases of private stretches they are well known for example, the sections of Brodhead already mentioned, Yellow Creek, Spruce Creek, Tobyhanna, Fishing Creek in Columbia Co, etc are all known statewide as having private water. When in doubt ask permission or fish on public property it is that simple.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Having fished that area since the late 80's it is just more of the same. With many absentee landowners, a younger me fished a few questionable spots, but the moment someone saw me and said, Nope, I crossed that off the list. The upside, is that there have been some good things in the other direction, like the ForeverGreen Preserve, for example. Good luck with a legal challenge, as NYC money runs deep in that region...

 

[rrt]

I have seen the following:

"No Trespassing: Survivors will be prosecuted."

 

[RLeep2]

I've seen the same signage, Rich..

Another one that gives me a chuckle is:

"Warning! Trespassers Will Be Violated!"

There are no doubt a number of good things about living in the shadow of the Coastal Megablob. These precarious access situations are not among them...

 

[Fredrick]

I have read most of the posts on this thread I have noticed allot of fear based statements and fear is what keeps most people from challenging these postings. Be a lion don't be a sheep or a church mouse if you feel something is posted and it isn't legal challenge it unless you are in the poor house a trespassing fine wont hurt the bank . If someone threatens your life its allot worse for them in the court of law than a trespassing fine, if you are about to invade their home its a completely different story. Don't let someone intimidate you into thinking you don't have a voice in the court of law . I have had problems with some of the tidal area's I fish with duck hunters trying to post tidal areas but I keep a copy of the law on my phone in the event I get challenged, even some of the WCO's I hear are part of these Duck hunting clubs. And I'm sure there are some people on this forum that are part of these fishing clubs or are a land owner illegally posting a navigable waterway . Listen to General Mattis