Bald Eagle Cr Proposed For Class A List

[FrankTroutAngler]

SteveG wrote:
Unless someone points me to some studies on lack of human harvest on populations in flowing bodies of water (and not some some farm pond hammer-handle wisdom), I don't think harvest would make any appreciable average size increase.

Between redds being stomped on, herons, ospreys, larger fish, other carnivores, and the fish that die during c&r, only a small percentage of fry ever make it to adulthood.

My opinion is that habitat (cover, feeding lanes, food, etc) and possibly stress via angling pressure could contribute to a truly "stunted" population in a stream.

I'll add to this by saying that I've been fishing Spring Creek since the early 1980's and it has been C&R the entire time. If no-kill regulations are causing there to be fewer large trout and more small trout, why wasn't this the case, say, back in the 1990's? No-kill regulations have been in effect the entire time.

I'm not saying the no-kill regulations couldn't be a contributor to the situation, but I think there are other factors involved, likely those mentioned by SteveG above. I'll add another potential factor: The water quality is probably better now than it was in the 1990's.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Frank...PM sent.

 

[SteveG]

Two other things I just thought of regarding this:

Is the "lack" of larger fish proven by shocking, or just assumed by anglers?

Are the larger fish moving into other waterways within the same drainage... This is a topic that has been intriguing me the past few years after having experienced some myself and seeing that of others.

One thing that I thought was neat when I was in Montana this year (first time), was how many of the "streams" were named. For instance, in PA we compartmentalize every trib or branch of a system. In MT many of the "tribs" (even fairly sizable ones) didn't have separate names from the mainstem that they fed. I know view connected waterways on more of a global. This even extends to "warm waters".

For example, if someone catches a brown out of the Conodoguinet, you immediately hear "that's a Letort/Big Spg/Trindle Spg/Hogestown Run fish". There is this assumption, especially for these aforementioned tribs because they're all true limestoners and loaded with food, that a trout in the Connie is "lost" and does not belong. For the record, I think there's more behind behavior like this than just looking for larger forage.

I didn't mean to ramble and derail the thread. I just think it's amazing that we think we know everything about these creatures, when in fact we probably only have them 40% figured out.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

Frank the Angler says-" If no-kill regulations are causing there to be fewer large trout and more small trout, why wasn't this the case, say, back in the 1990's? No-kill regulations have been in effect the entire time."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very good question.

What happened to the fingerling stocking program on Bald Eagle some years back? Was it a failure? I never heard.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

" I'll add another potential factor: The water quality is probably better now than it was in the 1990's."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean doesn't mean it will be loaded with the things big trout like to eat.
Are you thinking the big trout are leaving seeking more fertile water?

 

[nymphingmaniac]

fingerling stocking continues. To my knowledge, no effort has been made to assess the outcome. Immediately after planting you can catch a ton of them-they are very easy to catch. Really annoying IMO. They are stocked sometime at the end of June, just in time for the water to warm. I've seen a good number floating in eddies during warm spells. My own "angler survey" doesn't suggest a major impact on the number of rainbows around in October, but this does not really answer the question.
Where it was actually examined, the fingerling stocking on the little J was a terrible waste of money. Hardly any of the stocked fish made it to adulthood (electroshocking). Informal surveys among dedicated, regular J fishers also did not find a significant number of fish with clipped fins either.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:
" I'll add another potential factor: The water quality is probably better now than it was in the 1990's."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean doesn't mean it will be loaded with the things big trout like to eat.
Are you thinking the big trout are leaving seeking more fertile water?

First of all, let me state that I'm not a biologist or in any way qualified to give more than an anecdotal answer to your question. I also haven't studied the electroshocking surveys on Spring Creek; doing so could quickly prove me wrong.

I mentioned that I believe the water quality is better for the purpose of mentioning one change not mentioned by SteveG that could have an impact. Just another factor to consider. Nothing more.

I've seen no evidence that big trout leave Spring Creek to seek more fertile water. I believe fewer trout are getting big in the first place.

With that said, I was thinking along the lines of something that I believe most anglers on this site actually agree on, believe it or not, and that is that the biggest trout in a stream often are located at the point where a trout stream becomes marginal for wild trout, typically in the lower reaches of a stream. And, there are usually only a few big trout there. So, if the water quality were to improve it might favor more small trout and fewer big trout in a section of stream that in the past had favored large trout due to lower quality water.

Obviously, none of Spring Creek was ever truly marginal, but is it possible that it was MORE "marginal" years ago due to lower water quality than it is now and that favored more large trout?

I know, or think I know, from personal observation that the section above Fly Fisherman's Paradise up to, say, the old boundary line for Rockview State Penitentiary, had very few wild trout back in the 1980's and early 1990's. I used to count the redds in this section when I fished it in the autumn and I was lucky to find even ten redds in this entire section. Heck, I used to catch smallmouth bass here. This is also the area where the stream was probably the most marginal since a lot of springs enter the stream far away from this section, both way above and below. The sewer from Rockview also entered above here as well as the trout poop outlet from the Benner Spring Research Station another mile or so upstream. This is the section that I believe used to get the warmest. But the trout that were here were large.

This is the section that I believe has changed the most over the years, as well as being the first area to see most big trout disappear. The sewer outlet from Rockview is gone and the poop from the BSRS has been reduced. Now it has almost no large wild trout but has a good population of small trout, much like the rest of the stream.

One of the reasons big trout exist in these marginal sections is because lower quality water often means more easily attainable large ticket food items. Is it possible there aren't as many large ticket food items in Spring Creek as there used to be? I don't know. To be honest, I don't recall there ever being a lot of large ticket food items there, such as chubs which would be easily seen. Now the largest ticket food item appears to be YOY trout.

Is it possible that higher quality water favors spawning success and fry survival, and that the food chain for trout now gets overwhelmed by little trout eating so much of the food before it ever gets a chance to become the large ticket items that trout need to become big (such as white sucker eggs and fry)? Or maybe if the trout used to get big because there was an abundance of small ticket food items but now those small ticket food items are overwhelmed by small trout, leaving a relative scarcity of small items so trout have less chance to get big on small items?

Does the reduction of big trout in the miles of streams below the hatchery at Fly Fisherman's Paradise down to Bellefonte coincide with the clean-up of the trout poop at this hatchery?

I think I rambled here and probably didn't give much support to my thoughts, but at least it gives you something to think about.

 

[troutbert]

Is the growth rate of trout in Spring Creek actually less than it was back in the 90s?

The PFBC should have data to allow figuring this out, as it's been surveyed regularly for years now.

You should be able to compare the average lengths of trout in different year classes, back in the 1990s vs more recently.

Look at the lengths of trout that are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... years old. And compare.

One explanation could be that the trout are growing more slowly.

Another explanation could be that the trout are growing at about the same rate per year. But less trout are living into the older year classes.

The data should show which is the correct answer.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

"Obviously, none of Spring Creek was ever truly marginal, but is it possible that it was MORE "marginal" years ago due to lower water quality than it is now and that favored more large trout?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you are on to something here.


15-20 yrs ago average trout in there was bigger (based on my personal angler surveys). Not uncommon to catch 1 or 2 18" fish in an outing and plenty in the 13 -14" range and nice and fat and healthy. I'm talking in an afternoon and evening of dry fly fishing below the Paradise. Average fish now is about as long as my hand. Occasional bigger ones.

So what has changed? Cleaner and more pressure from what I've seen. Probably a combination.

What would be reason for less trout living into older year classes?

Perhaps increased pressure from constant year round fishing? I don't recall the constant fishing pressure back then that you see today....but I could be mistaken.

 

[troutbert]

foxtrapper1972 wrote:

What would be reason for less trout living into older year classes?

Perhaps increased pressure from constant year round fishing? I don't recall the constant fishing pressure back then that you see today....but I could be mistaken.

That is a possibility. Dr. Carline said that based on the trout population info and the angler use & catch rate info, he estimated that trout in Spring Creek are being caught on average about 6 times per year.

So, a trout might be caught 30 times in 5 years. Even if the mortality percentage per C&R event is low, if you start multiplying times 6 C&R events per year, then multiplying by the number of years of a trout's life, the chances that a trout will live to 6 years of age are greatly reduced.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

"cleaner" is the not the problem. I would avoid such conclusions.
Cleaner and more fish (or reputation of) means more pressure. Well put troutbert- more pressure =more times caught =less chance to get big.
Furthermore, comparing Spring Creek to those locally that I catch more big fish also suggests something else : habitat. Spring creek is not big water, except for a few places. Other water (won't mention) have much more deep and large water. People pushing the envelope fishing under stressful conditions make it worse.
Not arguing against the effects of biomass, but suitable habitat for big fish is a problem in Spring Creek.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

I've been fishing Spring Creek for a long time as well...at least since 1980. Fish were much larger in the Paradise and outside of it during the 80's and early 90's. I agree that Spring Creek is lacking habitat i.e. large woody debris, etc., and that for the most part it is a wide, low gradient limestoner. I also agree that that the effluent coming from Rockview and Benner Springs contributed to larger fish. I see support for this notion when I think of what the Ditch at Big Springs used to be when the hatchery was still up and running. The food supply consisted of pollution tolerant macroinvertebrates. Trout in the Ditch attained large lengths/weights in a short amount of time. While you will receive no argument from me about the necessity of the hatchery closing in favor of resurrecting the native brook population- there are plenty of folks who wish that the previous fishery in the Ditch still remain. For those that still fish the Ditch, I think you can agree that it no longer contains the density of large fish that it used to- not even close. Arguably, when Tylersville Hatchery ceased operations, you no longer saw the large fish immediately downstream on Fishing Creek that were prevalent. I really think poop leads to larger fish. If you ever get the chance, swing by Elkhorn Creek in WV. There are literally PVC pipes coming from all the homes along the creek. Raw human waste in dumped right into the creek. Hatches are very few and far between, yet the trout grow to astronomical sizes. Elkhorn is probably WV's best trout stream. I too, would be curious to see the data regarding growth rates on Spring since the PFBC began surveying it.

 

[OldLefty]

W_T, I lived in Coaldale when the hatchery truck broke down and the trout had to be put into Elkhorn. Talk about an unscheduled stocking...

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

nymphingmaniac wrote:
"cleaner" is the not the problem. I would avoid such conclusions.
Cleaner and more fish (or reputation of) means more pressure. Well put troutbert- more pressure =more times caught =less chance to get big.
Furthermore, comparing Spring Creek to those locally that I catch more big fish also suggests something else : habitat. Spring creek is not big water, except for a few places. Other water (won't mention) have much more deep and large water. People pushing the envelope fishing under stressful conditions make it worse.
Not arguing against the effects of biomass, but suitable habitat for big fish is a problem in Spring Creek.

Do you think the habitat for big trout has declined along with the decline in large trout? Personally, I can't see where that has changed all that much, just from general observation.

By the way, my observation that I believe the water in Spring Creek is cleaner now than it was in the 1980's and that this could possibly be a reason for the decline of big trout was not a conclusion -- just a possibility and perhaps a contributing factor.

 

[bigjohn58]

nymphingmaniac wrote:
fingerling stocking continues. To my knowledge, no effort has been made to assess the outcome. Immediately after planting you can catch a ton of them-they are very easy to catch. Really annoying IMO. They are stocked sometime at the end of June, just in time for the water to warm. I've seen a good number floating in eddies during warm spells. My own "angler survey" doesn't suggest a major impact on the number of rainbows around in October, but this does not really answer the question.
Where it was actually examined, the fingerling stocking on the little J was a terrible waste of money. Hardly any of the stocked fish made it to adulthood (electroshocking). Informal surveys among dedicated, regular J fishers also did not find a significant number of fish with clipped fins either.

My personal experience with fingerling stockings have been up and down. When they stock the fingerlings it gets annoying and basically ruins the fishery for the next month or 2 because that's all you catch unless you start chucking big streamers which isn't a bad idea. When these fingerling stockings happen there is a large increase in predatory animals that find their way to the stream. Mergansers are very rare on Fishing Creek BUT the one year there was a flock of about 30 that hung out for a good part of August mainly because of the fingerlings. I wonder how many wild browns they ended up eating. I have also experienced otters after stockings as well. The first several years of fingerling stockings on Fishing Creek I know for a fact did not succeed. They seemed to do well until winter hit then just seemed to die off or disappear. I will say this though the fingerling stocking from 2 years ago did have a larger percentage survive. When you fish the stream all year long you are able to kinda watch them grow up. I often caught them this last spring and summer where I said oh that's one of the fingerlings from last August that made it.

 

[albud1962]

the rainbows stocked in bald eagle creek are surviving, only in spring creek. Over the last 10 years i have noticed a marked increase in rainbows I caught in spring creek. A number of these are wild. I have caught them as small as 3". After the stocking lower spring creek is full of them. I dont know the size distribution of the rainbows stocked at Bellfonte, but the lower creek rainbows definitely appear different. I guess I enjoy catching them, they do fight well. I dont have an opinion either way whether they belong there. I still catch large trout in Spring Creek but mainly below the canyon. Caught 2 18 inchers last fall and an 17 incher yesterday. The main problem for spring creek is the increasing impervious surfaces(roads) and the increase groundwater withdrawls. Ultimately these factors will control the productivity of spring creek. There are calls to increase the number of lanes of 322 up Tussey mountain. Once this happens i predict the fishing will be a shadow of what it is today.

 

[franklin]

albud1962 wrote:
the rainbows stocked in bald eagle creek are surviving, only in spring creek. Over the last 10 years i have noticed a marked increase in rainbows I caught in spring creek. A number of these are wild. I have caught them as small as 3". After the stocking lower spring creek is full of them. I dont know the size distribution of the rainbows stocked at Bellfonte, but the lower creek rainbows definitely appear different. I guess I enjoy catching them, they do fight well. I dont have an opinion either way whether they belong there. I still catch large trout in Spring Creek but mainly below the canyon. Caught 2 18 inchers last fall and an 17 incher yesterday. The main problem for spring creek is the increasing impervious surfaces(roads) and the increase groundwater withdrawls. Ultimately these factors will control the productivity of spring creek. There are calls to increase the number of lanes of 322 up Tussey mountain. Once this happens i predict the fishing will be a shadow of what it is today.

Most of the 322 expansion is in the Penns Creek drainage area. I do agree that paved surfaces are adding to the potential for water quality issues on Spring but the amount of shopping center/big box store lots are probably a larger contributor. They funnel vast amounts of water directly into storm drains and can lead to dramatic variances in stream flows.

 

[bigjohn58]

albud1962 wrote:
I still catch large trout in Spring Creek but mainly below the canyon. Caught 2 18 inchers last fall and an 17 incher yesterday.

I don't really consider a trout large until they get over 20". For the number of fish in Spring Creek the average size is small. Bald Eagle holds a greater number of large fish and its not from the stock trucks either. An 18 incher is no slouch but I think I'd just snap a quick phone pic and not worry with a nice selfie photo with my GoPro.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Bald Eagle has monster trout.

 

[albud1962]

Hook_Jaw wrote:

Bald Eagle has monster trout.

Which are ocassionally caught in spring creek
:-D :-D