Wild Trout Stream Survey

[Chaz]

Ok, on Saturday there were 12 anglers on Indian Creek, 6 vehicles parked on the Hosensack, 7 anglers fishing the West Branch Perkiomen Creek, and countless others on the Main branch of Perkiomen Creek. The only creek of the 4 that can be considered stocked is the main branch of Perkiomen Creek, even it has a very good wild population.
I figure there were at least 2 anglers per car on the Hosensack, that would make the count 31 anglers on 3 wild trout streams that are very small and the pressure won't end until Memorial Day, though I doubt they will return once they harvest "their trout." That's 155 dead wild trout yesterday. How many watersheds can withstand that?

 

[Squaretail]

Used to be a club that stocked Hosensack that I belonged to. Dont they stock it for 1st day anymore? I grew up in Palm and it was kinda "my" stream back in those days. Rarley saw anybody after the first few weeks, and yes it was a real darkhorse of a wild trout stream for that area. My best wild were 19" and 17" and a bunch of big club stockies that I've forgotten long ago. Is the one branch of the Perkiomen you're talking also referred to as the Forgedale?

 

[tomgamber]

Chaz wrote:
Ok, on Saturday there were 12 anglers on Indian Creek, 6 vehicles parked on the Hosensack, 7 anglers fishing the West Branch Perkiomen Creek, and countless others on the Main branch of Perkiomen Creek. The only creek of the 4 that can be considered stocked is the main branch of Perkiomen Creek, even it has a very good wild population.
I figure there were at least 2 anglers per car on the Hosensack, that would make the count 31 anglers on 3 wild trout streams that are very small and the pressure won't end until Memorial Day, though I doubt they will return once they harvest "their trout." That's 155 dead wild trout yesterday. How many watersheds can withstand that?

So my only question on that, Chaz, would be: What if all those anglers were catching and releasing fish. Would it then be ok? You were there...were they all keeping everything over 7 inches. In that case, yes, it would be bad for the fishery. But most of the people on this board say they are going to a class A or similar stream on opening day. I never take anyone along with mene angler per car. (I hate leaving at lunch just because someone else wants food).
But what would your alternative be...lower creel limit...larger minimum size limit?

 

[JackM]

Most anglers do not limit out, for what its worth.

 

[LehighRegular]

I think Chaz is showing what could be a "worse case" scenario. If it played out like that...the fishery will definitely take a hit. I think Chaz's point is if you read between the lines....is that the PFBC does not see it that way, that this can happen and probably does on some streams.

And Jack....if that is the case....then why have a 5 fish limit???

I fished the Tully DHALO on Sat AM....TONS of guys out and not much room to breath. Did see a few "illegal" bait slingers :-D Also saw the PFBC roll up to patrol the stream...hope they caught those "illegals"

Then I fished an open stretch of the Tully w/ my kids in the afternoon. I saw lots of guys with 3-5 fish on the stringers. Plus don't forget, some take more than that too, you just don't always see it. The old throw'em in the cooler and come back with an empty stringer trick.

 

[mnem11]

it is my opinion that watersheds that could sustain a trout population should be modestly stocked with "worthy" fish(due to fishing pressures). how good are these fish that they stock? do they stand a chance in an ideal environment?

 

[troutbert]

mnem11 wrote:
it is my opinion that watersheds that could sustain a trout population should be modestly stocked with "worthy" fish(due to fishing pressures). how good are these fish that they stock? do they stand a chance in an ideal environment?

mnem,
The PFBC stocking is for what's called "put and take" fishing. The goal is not to establish a population. Streams that are capable of supporting trout in nearly every case already have a wild trout population, because trout have been introduced there in the past or swam there from neighboring streams, and established a reproducing population. Or in the case of brookies, they've been there since before white man arrived.

The percentage of adult trout they stock that still remain in the stream one year after they stock is extremely small.

 

[Padraic]

hope they caught those "illegals"

You can report those guys... especially when the WCO is right there.

 

[Chaz]

There are 2 points being made here, I didn't mention it before, but he Hosensack and Indian Creek are stocked by the Local Club, the club was asked to stop stocking the Class A sections of Perkiomen Creek but they still do. They consider all the fish in the Perky drainage their fish, because they've been stocking for years. The point is the fish don't belong to the club they are meant to be for everyone; they get the fish from PFBC and are not supposed to stock over wild populations.
The other point is that harvest does occur quite frequently on wild trout streams, and Perkiomen Creek is a perfect example, it has nearly 6 miles of Class A Water some of which is stocked is stocked, the other 5 miles of the stream have a very healthy wild population. Most years you can catch wild trout in the lower creek until mid-June, but of course some years the water gets warm enough early that the trout move to cooler environs.

 

[JackM]

Chaz wrote:
There are 2 points being made here, I didn't mention it before, but he Hosensack and Indian Creek are stocked by the Local Club, the club was asked to stop stocking the Class A sections of Perkiomen Creek but they still do.....

Who asked them to stop stocking? If it was the PFBC, then they need to enforce the laws:

58 Pa. Code § 71.5. Improper stocking of Commission fish.

In stocking fish reared or salvaged by the Commission or a cooperative nursery recognized by the Commission, the following acts are prohibited:

(1) Failure to stock fish in waters designated by Commission personnel.

(2) Diversion of fish to be stocked to waters not open or accessible to free public fishing.

(3) Mishandling or misuse of fish being stocked in a manner so as to damage or destroy the fish.

 

[Bamboozle]

Not to mention that stocking DESIGNATED, (meaning on the Class A list) Class A Sections is also prohibited by the PFBC.

If the "local club" is stocking the Perkiomen above Toll Gate Rd in Hereford, which is the ONLY Class A section on the Class A list; then they are in fact also in violation the law, (I think); and should be dealt with accordingly.

Stocking the other non-listed sections of the Perkiomen isn't a violation of any law if done in accordance with what was outlined by JackM above despite opinions as to what the biomass class ratings are of the unlisted sections.

In addition; unless the PFBC specifically instructed the "local club" not to stock Hosensack or Indian Creeks; they wouldn't be doing anything legally wrong since neither creek is listed as Class A so therefore they can be stocked whether we like it or not.

 

[troutbert]

Clubs that have coop hatcheries are given a list of waters that they are permitted to stock. They are not permitted to stock trout anywhere else but the waters on that list.

But they often do. They often stock them wherever they please, including Class A waters. The rules do not seem to be enforced very well.

 

[Mike]

Chaz,

Go back to the Wild Trout Creel Survey report and you'll find that harvest on small (less than 6 m. wide) wild brown trout streams is essentially nill. Additionally, keeping the limit of wild trout is not very common....most who keep wild trout keep fewer than the limit and large numbers of anglers keep none. Most of the streams that you mentioned as having checked are stocked by a co-op nursery, however, and that is the likely source of the angling pressure that you saw.

Mike

 

[Maurice]

Mike wrote:
Chaz,

......Most of the streams that you mentioned as having checked are stocked by a co-op nursery, however, and that is the likely source of the angling pressure that you saw.

Mike

Mike,

What does that mean???? My perception of that statement based on my experience with co-ops (other than ours) is that the whack anything they can put on a stringer. They think the fish came from the co-op that stocked it.

We only put the co-op fish that we stock in APWs and/or in one case, downstream of one and another non-APW (not class A...not even close) in only a limited area (handicapped area).

Take a look at the waters stocked by the co-ops. I would venture to guess nearly 50% go outside the APW's. That's suppression.

I still can't wrap my arms around the fact that taking the bulk of the larger fish doesn't crop a population. I mean, if there are 33 trout over the legal limit and half of them are harvested won't that reduce the angler experience? I know the 40-50% mortality thing is science but keep in mind the ones taken are the larger ones only.....

So say for instance you take the total number of fish stocked in an APW and reduce that number by 40%....like at Muddy Creek. Do you think it won't have an impact on the angler experience? I can tell you from what I am hearing...things are not good. The natives are getting restless.

I mean, we have only one inseason stocking in our big creeks because of reasons we've discussed and the Co-ops are stocking wild trout streams. I'm having a little trouble coming to grips with all this.

Maurice

 

[Chaz]

All of those waters are stocked by the local club and while our TU Chapter is trying to get more access to the stream for fishing, large numbers of anglers on private land stocking fish isn't going to get us very far in our efforts. Even though limits of wild browns aren't common on wild trout streams, I'm telling you these guys don't care whether the trout came from natural reproduction or some hatchery, this "Club" considers those fish theirs and by god they are going to harvest as many as they can. And they still stock the Class A Section above rt. 100.

 

[afishinado]

Mike,

Why doesn’t the PFBC stock Class A wild trout streams?

After you answer that, answer why does the PFBC allow private clubs to stock Class A streams?

Isn't the result the same, no matter who stocked it?

 

[Bamboozle]

If the PFBC doesn't allow private stockings of listed Class A sections or streams as I suspect they don't; I highly suggest to those who are aware of the practice and the locations where it occurs, to contact the PFBC in your region and/or gather some evidence like possibly a photo of the bucket brigade.

I'm sure if you called the offending organization and offered your assistance to "stock" they would gladly accept which would provide you with dates/times. Somehow I don't think that IF they are really stocking LISTED Class A sections; that they are doing it under the cover of darkness with the membership sworn to secrecy.

JMHO

 

[afishinado]

Bamboozle,

I'm not at all sure that the PFBC does NOT allow stocking of Class A streams by private concerns. If Chaz and many others (like every club member) knows what's happening on the stream, it would seem logical that the PFBC knows what's going on too, since that's their job. Either there is no policy against stocking class A's or the PFBC is turning a blind eye toward stocking. I'm interested in the answer from Mike.

 

[FarmerDave]

They do allow it, or should I say they do not disallow it as a rule. I asked a fw years ago.

 

[FarmerDave]

Maurice wrote:


I still can't wrap my arms around the fact that taking the bulk of the larger fish doesn't crop a population. I mean, if there are 33 trout over the legal limit and half of them are harvested won't that reduce the angler experience? I know the 40-50% mortality thing is science but keep in mind the ones taken are the larger ones only.....

So say for instance you take the total number of fish stocked in an APW and reduce that number by 40%....like at Muddy Creek. Do you think it won't have an impact on the angler experience? I can tell you from what I am hearing...things are not good. The natives are getting restless.

I mean, we have only one inseason stocking in our big creeks because of reasons we've discussed and the Co-ops are stocking wild trout streams. I'm having a little trouble coming to grips with all this.

Maurice

I'm with you Maurice.

The way I see it, they are pulling a Ross Perrot and making the charts to fit the agenda. For example, the 40 to 50 percent mortality thing (or whatever the numbers are). That is not a daily or overnight mortality or they would be gone in a hurry. However, harvesting 40 percent can be a single day occurance. On some of the small streams i used to fish, one or two people could noticeable screw things up for a month or two. Heck, I've don it myself. Trout just don't grow all that fast especially in the infertile freestone streams. But lets look at the bright side. Lets say a group of anglers reduce the total number by 40 percent one week. Then you reduce what is left by 40 percent the next week. that mean they have actually harvested less fish, AND that is only 24 percent of the original population??? Thing are looking up for that stream!!! They aren't the only people who can play with the numbers!!!:-x