Why streams with no harvest?

[larkmark]

They can't handle the truth.

All the promotion that turned Spring Creek into a circus which likely made the quality of the fishery less is not something that the "streams need more friends" crowd want to face.

 

[krayfish2]

Larkmark,
Sounds like Spring and Penns would be perfect candidates for a closed season from October 30 - March 15.

Somebody asked about how old the 10" fish might be on Spring. When working at a hatchery, I remember us being able to put 1.5" or slightly more on the fish per month (water temps ranged 44 - 62). With the fairly stable temps / flows of spring and the invertebrate population, I would like to think those fish grow around 1/2" - 3/4" per month up to around the time they are a year and a half old. After that, the growth seems to slow lengthwise and the fish seem to start bulking up.

 

[larkmark]

I think krayfish may be onto something. Both streams have everything the trout need...so it seems reasonable to offer the fish a break with the idea that it might allow some of them to grow. It really is kind of silly going to good sized water like Penns and Spring and catching fish the size that could easily live in a trickle.

 

[jifigz]

I think 5% mortality rate is probably low and that a higher percentage of caught fish will perish.

By closing spring and Penns all it will do is crowd other streams unless it is a statewide closure which I don't support. Leave spring be the place where everyone goes and keep them off of the numerous better streams that surround spring.

 

[Swattie87]

So the suggestion is that eliminating C&R angling over the colder months will lead to more big fish?

Not sure I buy that one. It may help with the spawn and YOY retention, sure. That’s a numbers game though, not size. But growing bigger fish? Brown Trout peak growth occurs in the high 50’s/low 60’s water temp right? Spring and Penns are heavily limestone influenced for sure, but they’re far from classic limestone springs (think the CV streams), and still have relatively wide temperature ranges that are seen throughout the year.

Seems to me like we should shut down the fishing when the temps are in that primo growth range, if we’re looking to grow bigger fish...Sounds like late April through mid June, and September through late October should be the closed season if you ask me. If big fish is our goal. Say goodbye to the prime Spring hatch season and the Fall pre-spawn feedbag bite. The water is often too hot to fish these streams mid-Summer, and of course we need to give them the November/December spawning season off. Hope everybody likes nymphing with their gloves on in January, February, and March.

Also, I fish a lot of trickles. The average size fish in Penns or Spring is still far bigger than even the best trickles I fish in PA.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

I've been fishing Spring since 1983. Based on personal observations and certain events, the water quality has improved significantly within the watershed. Think along the lines of the water treatment facilities and the three hatcheries (Pleasant Gap is included because of discharge into Logan Branch). Poop...whether it originates from humans or fish or both...has the unintended consequence of producing very large trout. Think of Big Spring in the Ditch. Sure, there was a lot of hatchery escapism, but the real reason there were so many large fish in the Ditch was because of all the excess uneaten, undigested food that was deposited there by the hatchery outflow which created an artificial fishery. The same happened at Spring, Big Fishing Creek at Tylersville, etc. There are streams in WV that have gained national recognition for having gigantic trout, but before heading there, you might want to update your tetanus shots and bring plenty of hand sanitizer. If/when WV ever gets around to requiring people to actually put in a septic system as opposed to just PVC pipes directly from their house to the creek- it will be interesting to see if those streams can still produce the fish sizes that they are producing now.

 

[JeffP]

We have fished Penns through the years (although only a couple times a year). It seems about 10 years ago we caught almost all 13-14 inch fish. I used to wonder where the smaller trout were! In the early days (when Penns was still stocked) there seemed to be a lot of 10 inch native browns. Recently, it seems like the fish have been smaller. It seems to me the crowds are about the same so I'm not sure its about pressure. My fishing is anecdotal but I would like to hear from people who fish Penns regularly. Are the trout really smaller? Is pressure that much greater than 10 years ago?

 

[krayfish2]

I like where you are going with this swattie LoL

Possibly an observation only fishery

 

[PennKev]

Swattie87 wrote:
Also, I fish a lot of trickles. The average size fish in Penns or Spring is still far bigger than even the best trickles I fish in PA.

One man's trickle is another mans river. The only fair comparison is between waterways of similar size and flow. In that regard, the size distribution of the fish in spring is pretty typical of a decent PA wild trout stream of similar size. The difference is in total numbers IMO.

I will say that there are much smaller streams, freestones nonetheless, on which I feel I have a as good as a chance of catching a18"+ trout as I do on Spring. That is where fishing pressure is a big factor based on my experience. I know there are more than a couple 18" trout in spring, but I also know that on certain streams with only a couple such fish and almost no pressure, i stand a very good chance of hooking one. I think it is this sort or experience that leads people to make unfavorable comparisons between spring and other lesser streams.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

The first time i went to "the Paradise" it had a dirt road next to the creek and barbed wire marking the boundaries. My how time have changed. I "blame" the problems on the Porta Potties. A couple on northern pike would get rid of the runts in the crick. Tongue in cheek. GG

 

[troutbert]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
The first time i went to "the Paradise" it had a dirt road next to the creek and barbed wire marking the boundaries. My how time have changed.

There was barbed wire at the upper end?

If so, why?

Was there no fishing, no trespassing allowed above there?

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

I'm surprised no one has challenged the 5% hooking mortality rate that has been mentioned. Doesn't 5% seem too high? I'd guess that probably 90% or more of the angling hours spent on Spring Creek are by fly fishermen. Are you guys saying that you think fly fishing has a hooking mortality rate approaching 5%?

One thing not mentioned is that upgrades at both hatcheries on Spring Creek have pretty much eliminated large trout from escaping. I noticed that the number of big trout (say 15" or larger) in Spring Creek a mile above and a mile below (roughly) the Benner Spring hatchery outlet declined precipitously immediately following the upgrades there. I recall counting as many as 30 - 40 trout of this size in, say, a mile stretch there before the upgrades. Now I am lucky to see more than one or two big trout in a mile stretch (even in the autumn when the trout are visible while spawning). I don't think this is a coincidence.

Another huge change not mentioned is the number of great blue herons (GBH's) that call Spring Creek home for about five months every year (not to mention the year-round residents). I began fishing Spring Creek in 1983 and I'd guess that there were only one or two GBH's living there at that time. I'd guess that there are now maybe fifteen that live there for about five months every year.

A GBH can eat a 15" trout (maybe 1.5 pounds or so of meat), so how many small trout could one GBH eat in a day? My conservative guess is that one GBH could eat ten 4" - 6" trout per day. If one GBH eats 10 trout a day for 150 days, that's 1,500 trout that don't have any chance to become a big trout. Now multiple those 1,500 trout that one GBH eats by fifteen GBH's and that equals 22,500 dead trout. No doubt my estimates are just estimates, but I personally believe GBH's are having a profound effect on the trout population on Spring Creek.

Here's another way to look at the GBH damage: If each GBH ate just one 12" trout per day for 150 days per year that would be 2,250 nice-sized trout gone forever. On a per-stream-mile basis, that would be over 100 nice-sized trout eaten per stream mile -- EVERY YEAR -- and it probably takes about three years for a trout to reach 12" on Spring Creek. Yes, GBH's have a profound effect on Spring Creek.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I would love to see some research on how many fish a gbh can consume in a day. If a heron is eating a 12in trout almost every day I doubt after a month or so of such a diet that they could still fly. I've rarely if ever seen a small trout with a bird of prey wound, however I frequently see these wounds on large fish during the low flow months. This tells me that all birds of prey are less successful targeting big fish than small fish.

Another interesting thought would be how many fish do mergansers eat in a day and what is their species of preference?

 

[PennKev]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:
I'm surprised no one has challenged the 5% hooking mortality rate that has been mentioned. Doesn't 5% seem too high? I'd guess that probably 90% or more of the angling hours spent on Spring Creek are by fly fishermen. Are you guys saying that you think fly fishing has a hooking mortality rate approaching 5%?

I agree, I think 5% is a bit high. However, I think there is merit in the hypothesis that the extreme amount of angling pressure on Spring is influencing the size and age distribution in the trout population. I think this situation is rather uncommon, but if there is any stream in our state where it occurs, Spring is likely that stream.

One thing not mentioned is that upgrades at both hatcheries on Spring Creek have pretty much eliminated large trout from escaping. I noticed that the number of big trout (say 15" or larger) in Spring Creek a mile above and a mile below (roughly) the Benner Spring hatchery outlet declined precipitously immediately following the upgrades there.

Aside from specific flooding events, I think the numbers of escapees is much smaller than some folks think. I do think the hatchery upgrades reduced the number of larger fish directly adjacent to the hatcheries, but that is do to cleaner water coming out of them. Before the upgrades at the paradise hatchery, fish stacked up below the outflow and there were always some good fish in the mix. Since the improvements there are fare less fish there. Additionally, if you sifted through the weeds in the outflow you'd find fish scales, rotten flesh, and all sorts of unidentifiable crud. Fish were eating a lot of the junk coming out of the hatchery or eating the prey items that were in turn eating the effluent.

Another huge change not mentioned is the number of great blue herons (GBH's) that call Spring Creek home for about five months every year (not to mention the year-round residents).

I've definitely noticed herons attacking, if not outright eating plenty of trout on other streams. I also think that due to Springs generally shallow nature, there are plenty of opportunities for herons to prey on trout. Additionally, herons are not too particular as to what size fish they go after. They will spear fish they have little hope of catching and eating.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Out of 506,801 hours logged, with 107,654 instances noted, i have concluded 74.6% of statistical blather is made up.

 

[jifigz]

Idaho's fish and wildlife agency make 5% for fly/lure fishing seem to be a reasonable estimate.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

troutbert wrote:

gulfgreyhound wrote:
The first time i went to "the Paradise" it had a dirt road next to the creek and barbed wire marking the boundaries. My how time have changed.

There was barbed wire at the upper end?

If so, why?

Was there no fishing, no trespassing allowed above there?
I hoped someone would have been around then that knew the story ?

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
I would love to see some research on how many fish a gbh can consume in a day. If a heron is eating a 12in trout almost every day I doubt after a month or so of such a diet that they could still fly. I've rarely if ever seen a small trout with a bird of prey wound, however I frequently see these wounds on large fish during the low flow months. This tells me that all birds of prey are less successful targeting big fish than small fish.

Another interesting thought would be how many fish do mergansers eat in a day and what is their species of preference?

I did a little research and found that a GBH can "easily eat a pound of fish per day." So...if a 12" trout on Spring Creek weighs about a pound or so a GBH could easily eat one per day.

Each year I catch several small trout that have bill marks (scrapes) on their sides. I'm not sure if this is from kingfishers or GBH's. I always figured it was from kingfishers, but I'm not sure of this.

I think birds of prey tend to target fish of a size that they can most successfully catch and eat. For example, kingfishers aren't going to be hunting 10" trout because they can't swallow them whole. Likewise, I doubt that bald eagles try to catch 4" trout in their talons. GBH's eat both small and large fish. They grab small fish with their bills and stab larger trout. GBH's also feed both at night and during the day.

I have been seeing some common mergansers on Spring Creek in recent years. No doubt they eat some trout.

 

[krayfish2]

GG,
The wire was the upper boundary of the project. Above that used to be prison property and trespassing was prohibited.

Frank,
I've been standing in the Tully and watched a heron eat 4 fish in the 11" - 15" range in a single feeding. He had to work a little extra to get airborne but did it easily. If they feed like that every other day, that's a ton of trout that go missing and there might be 15-20 resident birds below the lake. Kind of amazing there's even fish in there with the amount of damage they do

 

[larkmark]

No doubt about herons taking a lot of fish. Mergansers really play hell on them. Interesting about the effluent from hatcheries and other playing a role. Makes sense to me. Good points coming up in this thread. I saw a GBH take a chipmunk one time at waterworks on Tulpehocken. They can take down good sized trout for sure. I throw rocks at them when they start getting too close to where I am fishing.