wildtrout2
Well-known member
Right. It's YOUR code of ethics, not the law. You don't need/have to like the laws, just obey them.
What to do?
- Thread starter Paul6.5
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wildtrout2
Well-known member
This.^
We're very lucky here in Pa to have all of the SGL, SF, and State Parks to hunt and fish in. I fish SGL and SF exclusively. Never a worry wether I'm fishing legally, or not. I enjoy the peace of mind.
Also, most wild trout streams, Class A, Wilderness, and Natural Repo, are on state owned land.
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I had no idea that you could find out who owns a property online so easily, great tip!
I looked up the spot I was referring to it's a Trust that is owned by a bank over 200 acres.
I will certainly look up land I am in doubt of from now on.
I looked up the spot I was referring to it's a Trust that is owned by a bank over 200 acres.
I will certainly look up land I am in doubt of from now on.
This may go against the opinions of what others here think, but if it is owned by a trust or a corporation and it is not posted, I would go ahead and fish it without asking and, if caught or reprimanded, beg for forgiveness.
I would be willing to guarantee no one ever says anything to you about being there.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Trust or corporation, I'd still ask for permission regardless because having that information in the event of a confrontation can be valuable.
Case in point: I fish a particular Class A where the first 50 yards of where I start is private property on one side. The other side is owned by a management company. Neither side is posted however a buddy was once confronted by the landowner.
I checked the parcel maps, called the management company, the OWNER gave me permission to fish any time I want and the next time I went fishing I was confronted by the guy on the opposite side...
So I called the WCO for the region, and gave him the phone number & contact at the management company and the WCO called me back and said, "You are fine, I am going to visit the landowner and straighten him out."
I never had another problem after that... 😉
Don't get me wrong, I respect that landowner's rights but in THIS case, he probably didn't post because he didn't even own the property into the center of the stream.
FWIW - I am a landowner and I have a Class A stream section running through my property. Nobody ever asked me to fish and I don't know what I would say if they did, but I'm posting it this spring because I can and I don't want ANYBODY on my property unless I know they are there.
I have a guy that bow hunts my property but he came and asked and all I asked of him was to notify me when he was coming and give me a little venison if he bagged anything on my property.
He conscientious, always calls and he stopped by the house yesterday and gave me some deer goodies. 😉
That's the way it should work...
Case in point: I fish a particular Class A where the first 50 yards of where I start is private property on one side. The other side is owned by a management company. Neither side is posted however a buddy was once confronted by the landowner.
I checked the parcel maps, called the management company, the OWNER gave me permission to fish any time I want and the next time I went fishing I was confronted by the guy on the opposite side...
So I called the WCO for the region, and gave him the phone number & contact at the management company and the WCO called me back and said, "You are fine, I am going to visit the landowner and straighten him out."
I never had another problem after that... 😉
Don't get me wrong, I respect that landowner's rights but in THIS case, he probably didn't post because he didn't even own the property into the center of the stream.
FWIW - I am a landowner and I have a Class A stream section running through my property. Nobody ever asked me to fish and I don't know what I would say if they did, but I'm posting it this spring because I can and I don't want ANYBODY on my property unless I know they are there.
I have a guy that bow hunts my property but he came and asked and all I asked of him was to notify me when he was coming and give me a little venison if he bagged anything on my property.
He conscientious, always calls and he stopped by the house yesterday and gave me some deer goodies. 😉
That's the way it should work...
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Lots of things are perfectly legal to do, it doesn’t make someone less of a dirtbag if they do it.
tomgamber
Well-known member
Get on Google earth or maps. Pull up the satellite and find the nearest house and ask. Don't get your gear out unless you get a positive response. You don't need a lawyer, you just need manners.
Swatties post is the only correct post I’ve read. To answer the OP’s question, you are 110% legally, morally, and ethically allowed to fish on the property you mentioned. Contrary to what some want others to believe, here is the law that we must read and UNDERSTAND,
Title 18
www.legis.state.pa.us
So reading along, we see that section (a) does not apply since you are not entering a building or separately secured portion thereof. Section (b), also known as defiant trespass, also does not apply since the property is not fenced, posted or otherwise communicated that you are not allowed to enter. Section (b.1) simple trespass also does not apply because you would have to have entered or remained in any place for THE PURPOSE OF threatening or terrorizing the owner, starting or causing a fire, or damaging the property. Even the most irrational land owner could not associate a fishing rod and waders with any of those elements.
So now we arrive at section b.2, agricultural trespasser where, contrary to what has been posted, requires the same posting or communication requirement as section b, defiant trespass.
as for the moral or ethical arguments, this is what some resort to when nothing else fits. Whether your an angler trying to apply the Magna Carta to fishing posted land or a landowner trying to keep others off their property without regard to the law. Either way, both are wrong. As free people we have the right to travel unencumbered wherever we wish to go. Freedom is a great thing. However, freedom can be governed and it frequently is. One way is when landowners don’t want you on their property which is their right. When two groups wish to exercise opposing rights and freedoms, the law must step in.
In this case the law allows the landowner to post his land, so post your land if you don’t want others on it. Simple. In fact I would argue it’s immoral and unethical to skirt the law to do as you see fit for the sole exclusive reason to exercise your rights with a total disregard that others also have rights and freedoms. Regardless of what side of the fence you are on, your rights don’t trump anyone else’s rights until the law intervenes. I will always follow the law and I expect others to do the same. It’s how a civilized society works. Post you land in accordance with the law if you don’t want others on it. If you don’t, it legally, morally and ethically implies others can be there. If signs or notice is given, don’t invoke the Magna Carta, stay out.
And yes, I am a homeowner, and a property owner. The property has a wonderful native brook trout stream that runs through it. No I didn’t care if others fished or hunted it. It was not posted. My home is not posted. Kids are welcome to cut through my yard which they frequently do. When I tire of this I will follow the law and put up a fence or a sign. It’s really that simple.
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Swattie87
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Cznymph is going about it the right way. And it seems counterintuitive on a FFing forum to have guys supporting the posting of property. But, if it’s your property, you paid for it, and you pay the taxes on it, you should be able to use and enjoy it as you see fit, and you should be able to control who accesses it, if you want to. The right thing to do in this scenario for both the landowner and the angling/hunting public is to post your property.
There was a forum member, not going to name him, as I haven’t seen him post in many years, that used the show up in all these types of threads and take the position that he didn’t post his land (on a popular central PA limestone influenced stream) but wanted to control access via permission, and expected people to ask him even though the property wasn’t posted. There was no convincing him that what he was doing was backwards in the eyes of the law, and that it was in his best interest to just post the property.
Everybody can have different moral opinions. We all have to follow the same laws though, and you don’t get to pick and choose laws and how they work for you individually. They work the same for everyone, unless you’re really really wealthy.
There was a forum member, not going to name him, as I haven’t seen him post in many years, that used the show up in all these types of threads and take the position that he didn’t post his land (on a popular central PA limestone influenced stream) but wanted to control access via permission, and expected people to ask him even though the property wasn’t posted. There was no convincing him that what he was doing was backwards in the eyes of the law, and that it was in his best interest to just post the property.
Everybody can have different moral opinions. We all have to follow the same laws though, and you don’t get to pick and choose laws and how they work for you individually. They work the same for everyone, unless you’re really really wealthy.
ryansheehan
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This is the same conversation and argument from 3 or 4 years ago......minus me arguing of course!
Now that you know who owns it, enjoy yourself and be glad for a lightly fished section of wild trout water. Be sure to respect the property and the fish. Contacting the owner (the trust administrators) and sending a thank you note for permission would be a good idea, too. Always pick up litter, esp. cans and bottles while fishing.
These are special places and are very difficult to find. It is getting harder and harder to obtain permission to fish certain places, when the properties change hands especially. I am nearing the end of my fishing days, and I think/hope the landowners who allow me to fish know how grateful I am for permission to fish their waters.
These are special places and are very difficult to find. It is getting harder and harder to obtain permission to fish certain places, when the properties change hands especially. I am nearing the end of my fishing days, and I think/hope the landowners who allow me to fish know how grateful I am for permission to fish their waters.
jeffroey
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I think every county has a property search repository. For example, here's the link for Monroe County - one of the ones I have bookmarked and refer to frequently enough:
agencies.monroecountypa.gov
My method is I generally start with the PAFB trout streams maps and from there, I might cross ref a particular "not obviously public" location to Google Maps which will most often get you close to the actual street address.
From there, I drop it in the County property search and it typically generates a map with parcel lines, owner info, and other details. Here's a very random example:
I might use the PAFBC Maps to targt Pocono Creek just North of BP State Park (totally random):
From there I'll find the corresponding location using Google Maps to get the actual street address (chose a Taco shack on Camelback Road, again totally random):
I enter that address in the County's property database to get owner info and parcel details like actual boundaries:
You can toggle to a map and often times select surrounding parcels:
Sometimes I use Google to only get me close and then use the parcel lines to plot a course - in many cases it's a course that stays OFF private land bordering public land.
In any event, that's my method and like I said, most counties have searchable databases of public property records like the Monroe County one here.
Monroe PA Property Search
My method is I generally start with the PAFB trout streams maps and from there, I might cross ref a particular "not obviously public" location to Google Maps which will most often get you close to the actual street address.
From there, I drop it in the County property search and it typically generates a map with parcel lines, owner info, and other details. Here's a very random example:
I might use the PAFBC Maps to targt Pocono Creek just North of BP State Park (totally random):
From there I'll find the corresponding location using Google Maps to get the actual street address (chose a Taco shack on Camelback Road, again totally random):
I enter that address in the County's property database to get owner info and parcel details like actual boundaries:
You can toggle to a map and often times select surrounding parcels:
Sometimes I use Google to only get me close and then use the parcel lines to plot a course - in many cases it's a course that stays OFF private land bordering public land.
In any event, that's my method and like I said, most counties have searchable databases of public property records like the Monroe County one here.
jeffroey
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Let me be the first: Can I fish your Class A Stream? 🙂
I’ve had my share of trespasser experiences over the years.
It still baffles me that people will enter property that isn’t theirs without permission.
I really didn’t want to be the guy that has posted signs and purple paint everywhere, but I was really left with no choice.
My property was open to hunting when I bought it. I put up no hunting without permission signs with my name and phone number. Not one person made the effort to reach out to me and get permission. That fall, I booted everyone off I encountered.
The next year I started to have people charged with trespass. Then some of my tree stands and trail cameras were stolen, so I posted the place up tight. Now no one has permission and I’m not sure that I’d give it to anyone at this point. I charge everyone I catch. Deer rifle season and September 1st (ginseng season) are worst for trespassers here.
That being said, i don’t really fish any private property anymore, but I’d extend the same respect to their property as I would like on my own. It really isn’t that hard to ask permission first, posted or not.
wildtrout2
Well-known member
After reading this, I can appreciate your frustration and anger towards folks who enter property without permission. I can totally understand why you've posted your property. Given the circumstances, I would have done the same, and wouuld maintain your same attitude.
ryansheehan
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With the laws of PA written the way they are you need to post if you don't want someone their without your permission. I do understand that's a pain but necessary for your preferences on your property. Sucks people were stealing from you, that's awful.
6xAdams(Jones)
Well-known member
People post property for a lot of varied and valid reasons. I had a coworker who put up signs on every side and corner of a < 1/4 acre lot. He didn't want to get sued by somebody, who was injured while breaking into his house or cars.
