What to do?

[Paul6.5]

Another post got me thinking about a location I fish and wondering if I should be.

A few years ago I found a section of a class A that runs through land that is not posted with signs or purple blaze. There are no homes, farms, or businesses for over a mile in every direction. There's no sign of activity and besides the occasional car on the road I've never seen another person.

The land is not marked as state, county or township land on any map I can find and does not appear green on Google maps.

I made a half hearted attempt to figure out who owns it by emailing the township it's located in but never got a reply.

It's a beautiful spot with plenty of fish, I fish it 4 or 5 times a year.

Should I stop, am I trespassing, am I being unethical somehow??

Not looking for legal advice just opinions.

 

[hooker-of-men]

Private property is theft. Keep fishing.

For serious, if you're worried, find someone with one of those hunting apps. They can identify the landowner for you if you really want to try to get in touch. Personally, I wouldn't go out of the way to get permission if it's not marked in any way.

 

[Cznymph]

Private property is theft. Keep fishing.

For serious, if you're worried, find someone with one of those hunting apps. They can identify the landowner for you if you really want to try to get in touch. Personally, I wouldn't go out of the way to get permission if it's not marked in any way.

I take it that you’re not a landowner.

 

[Paul6.5]

I take it that you’re not a landowner.

I am, I take it by your reply you feel I am trespassing?

 

[Paul6.5]

I am, I take it by your reply you feel I am trespassing?

Oops I misread.

 

[Cznymph]

I am, I take it by your reply you feel I am trespassing?

It’s the responsibility of the angler to know who’s land they are on at all times and if they are permitted to be there.

In todays era of information, there is litteraly no excuse to not know who a property owner is.

My belief if this, if the owner hasn’t told you that you are permitted to be on the property, stay off until you get that permission

 

[tjsingle]

Hey Paul6.5,

Take a look on your counties GIS Tax Parcel viewer, you'll be able to find the owner and more information on the parcel(s)the creek might be on. All property owner information is public record.

Typically I use the PFBC GIS maps for a starting point for access but will look at the specific counties website as well if something isn't clear.

If you do find its a private owner, you could always seek permission from them.

 

[troutbert]

Hey Paul6.5,

Take a look on your counties GIS Tax Parcel viewer, you'll be able to find the owner and more information on the parcel(s)the creek might be on. All property owner information is public record.

Typically I use the PFBC GIS maps for a starting point for access but will look at the specific counties website as well if something isn't clear.

If you do find its a private owner, you could always seek permission from them.

Some counties have this information on their website, and some do not.

For the ones that do not, you can go to the county office and ask them. As stated above, it is public information.

 

[tjsingle]

Some counties have this information on their website, and some do not.

For the ones that do not, you can go to the county office and ask them. As stated above, it is public information.

Yeah if there's not a GIS App, usually you can get a PDF map with the parcel numbers and figure it from there.

 

[wildtrout2]

It’s the responsibility of the angler to know who’s land they are on at all times and if they are permitted to be there.


My belief if this, if the owner hasn’t told you that you are permitted to be on the property, stay off until you get that permission

Is it not the responsibilty of the land owner to post their property in some fashion if they want nobody on it?

If the owner hasn't made that clear, then wouldn't it be okay to fish if not told otherwise?

 

[Cznymph]

Is it not the responsibilty of the land owner to post their property in some fashion if they want nobody on it?

If the owner hasn't made that clear, then wouldn't it be okay to fish if not told otherwise?

It is not a legal requirement in PA to post your property if you want other people not to use it. It makes citing someone for trespassing much easier if the property is posted however.

In some states, like Maine, it is assumed that if the land is not posted, it is open for public use.

Do you think that someone who owns an acre in a suburban housing plan would be cool with me pitching a tent and camping in their back yard, because their property isn’t posted? After all, you claim that it’s the landowners responsibility.

 

[wildtrout2]

Do you think that someone who owns an acre in a suburban housing plan would be cool with me pitching a tent and camping in their back yard, because their property isn’t posted? After all, you claim that it’s the landowners responsibility.

Not at all, but the OP mentioned the stream in question has no homes, or businesses within a mile in any direction. That's a very different situation than you present.

Posting isn't a legal responsibilty of a land owner, but it makes a lot of sense if you want to keep folks from being on your property.

 

[Cznymph]

Not at all, but the OP mentioned the stream in question has no homes, or businesses within a mile in any direction. That's a very different situation than you present.

Posting isn't a legal responsibilty of a land owner, but it makes a lot of sense if you want to keep folks from being on your property.

Size of the parcel and proximity to structures shouldn’t matter. Private is private. It’s not the OPs property, and if they don’t have permission to be there, they should stop fishing until they get said permission.

I can only speak for my own ethical code and how I wished to be treated by those that would want to use my land. No matter if it’s one acre in Bucks County or one hundred in Potter, If I don’t have permission, I stay off it until I do.

 

[wildtrout2]

If you don't want folks on your property, post it. Pretty basic. If you leave a property unposted you take your chances of people being on it. Agree or disagree, it's really that simple.

Not posting your property and expecting people not to go on it is really naive.

 

[Cznymph]

If you don't want folks on your property, post it. Pretty basic. If you leave a property unposted you take your chances of people being on it. Agree or disagree, it's really that simple.

My property is posted, but the fact is that prior to the purple paint law, posters got ripped down. It’s happened often on my land and I’m sure many others.

Quite frankly it was an attitude like yours that caused me to post my property.

 

[wildtrout2]

I do not condone trespassing, make no mistake. This has nothing to do with my "attitude" regarding the subject, I simply stated facts and the reality of unposted property. I'm sure it's very frustrating having your signs torn down. I totally understand your position, but there's always going to be that one idiot who has no respect for anything. It's the world we live in today.

 

[Swattie87]

If your property isn’t posted, and you haven’t informed by some other means an otherwise lawful hunter or angler that they’re not welcome on your property, they’re not trespassing. Until you’ve informed them. Like it or not, that’s the way PA works.

Once you’ve reasonably informed someone that they’re not welcome on your land for the purpose of hunting or fishing, then they are trespassing. The manner in which you inform them doesn’t really matter. Since it’s not practical for most landowners to actively patrol their properties 24/7, the most practical and reasonable way of informing someone they are not welcome to hunt or fish on your land is simply to properly post the property. Or, if you want to require your permission as to who accesses the property, again, post it. Now the public is informed, and as the landowner you have a direct avenue for legal enforcement for anyone you catch there without your permission.

While I personally choose to ask permission to fish on private land, unless it’s an obvious situation where fishing is allowed, STW posters, fishing permitted signs, etc, the law in PA favors the hunter/angler, until the landowner has informed them they are not welcome. Not saying I agree with that, just relaying the facts.

Anglers/hunters - Ask permission, even if not required, it’s the right thing to do.

Landowners - If you don’t want folks fishing or hunting on your property, or you want to monitor and control access as to who does, post it. It’s the right thing to do, assuming you don’t want to allow access, or want to limit or control access.

Edit: To the OP. As you’ve described it (fishing an unposted property), you’re not doing anything wrong or illegal. Unless and until the landowner has informed you in some fashion that you cannot fish there. That said, many will suggest the best and most respectful course of action regardless would be to locate the landowner and ask their permission. Which unless it was obviously posted that fishing was permitted on the property somehow, is the course I’d probably choose to take.

We’re lucky with all the public land fishing opportunities in PA, and that’s what I mostly fish. Eliminates this issue and any hassle associated with it. I bet I fish less than 5 times a year on streams that aren’t on public land, and I haven’t run out of new public ones to try yet.

 

[Cznymph]

I do not condone trespassing, make no mistake. This has nothing to do with my "attitude" regarding the subject, I simply stated facts and the reality of unposted property. I'm sure it's very frustrating having your signs torn down. I totally understand your position, but there's always going to be that one idiot who has no respect for anything. It's the world we live in today.

All the OP needs to do is take five minutes out of their day to research the land owner and make a phone call or write a letter asking for permission. In the time it took them to post in this site, they could have used OnX and gotten an owners name and address.

It’s as simple as that. Just because land is unposted, doesn’t mean it’s an invitation for you do as you wish. If you wouldn’t walk into someone’s backyard in a subdivision, why is it ok for you to walk into my land to fish?

Again, speaking for my own code of ethics, If it’s private and there are no signs stating that use of the land is permitted in some way, i stay off it.

 

[Cznymph]

If your property isn’t posted, and you haven’t informed by some other means an otherwise lawful hunter or angler, they’re not trespassing. Until you’ve informed them. Like it or not, that’s the way PA works.

Once you’ve reasonably informed someone that they’re not welcome on your land for the purpose of hunting or fishing, then they are trespassing. The manner in which you inform them doesn’t really matter. Since it’s not practical for most landowners to actively patrol their properties 24/7, the most practical and reasonable way of informing someone they are not welcome to hunt or fish on your land is simply to properly post the property. Now the public is informed, and as the landowner you have a direct avenue for legal enforcement.

If your property isn’t posted, and you haven’t informed by some other means an otherwise lawful hunter or angler, they’re not trespassing. Until you’ve informed them. Like it or not, that’s the way PA works.

Once you’ve reasonably informed someone that they’re not welcome on your land for the purpose of hunting or fishing, then they are trespassing. The manner in which you inform them doesn’t really matter. Since it’s not practical for most landowners to actively patrol their properties 24/7, the most practical and reasonable way of informing someone they are not welcome to hunt or fish on your land is simply to properly post the property. Now the public is informed, and as the landowner you have a direct avenue for legal enforcement.

While I personally choose to ask permission to fish on private land, unless it’s an obvious situation where fishing is allowed, STW posters, fishing permitted signs, etc, the law in PA favors the hunter/angler, until the landowner has informed them they are not welcome. Not saying I agree with that, just relaying the facts.

Anglers/hunters - Ask permission, even if not required, it’s the right thing to do.

Landowners - If you don’t want folks fishing or hunting on your property, post it. It’s the right thing to do, assuming you don’t want to allow access.

Edit: To the OP. As you’ve described it (fishing an unposted property), you’re not doing anything wrong or illegal. Unless and until the landowner has informed you in some fashion that you cannot fish there. That said, many will suggest the best and most respectful course of action regardless would be to locate the landowner and ask their permission. Which unless it was obviously posted that fishing was permitted on the property somehow, is the course I’d probably choose to take.

We’re lucky with all the public land fishing opportunities in PA, and that’s what I mostly fish. Eliminates this issue and any hassle associated with it. I bet I fish less than 5 times a year on streams that aren’t on public land, and I haven’t run out of new ones to try yet.

This is only correct for defiant trespass.

If you cause damage to the property, ie walking or driving in or across a crop field, cutting trees, etc, you can be charged with simple trespass or agricultural trespass if relevant.

Defiant trespass requires the landowner to inform the trespasser first, either through signs or personal communication.

 

[Swattie87]

This is only correct for defiant trespass.

If you cause damage to the property, ie walking or driving in or across a crop field, cutting trees, etc, you can be charged with simple trespass or agricultural trespass if relevant.

Defiant trespass requires the landowner to inform the trespasser first, either through signs or personal communication.

Agree. Though I was giving the OP (and most anglers and hunters) the benefit of the doubt and the assumption that they weren’t damaging the property in any way.

I’m glad that you’ve chosen to post your property, and I fully support and respect your right to do so. I can assure you that I’ll never access it, without asking your permission first. Seems like the right choice for you and how you wish manage your property. IMO, given how the law in PA works, it’s in equally poor taste to not post your property, and then expect folks to ask your permission anyway. That’s exactly why you should post it! If we don’t like the law, and want PA to instead be a state where express permission is required for lawful hunting/angling access, we should pressure our legislators to change it.