Waters with the Biggest Potential

[foxfire]

Youghiogheny

Curious is which ways???

 

[JSky]

Curious is which ways???

Same. It doesn’t really have the potential for natural reproduction. It does have great water and structure, but the ph is wrong and it doesn’t have great hatches,

 

[Fish Sticks]

I hear the AMD remediation on the West Branch of the Susquehanna is resulting in some decent trout in the upper reaches of that river.

This is a study Tom Clark from SRBC did on kratzer run a trib in the west branch of the Susquehanna after AMD remediation. The video is called “brown trout invasion” apptly named. For results of the study showing as soon as PH increased browns moved in and ate the brook trout population fast forward to somewhere around 10 min in. We still have to fix AmD but wants the water is cleaned up brown trout can live in it and usually push brook trout out as video shows. Amd projects need to factor this in.

 

[jifigz]

Moshannon Creek is #1 for me. A few hundred yards from my grandmother's house in Munson. Everytime I drive over the bridge I sigh at the loss. She remembered in the 1930-40's when it ran clean and full of fish, so the damage is pretty recent from strip mines. It runs so yellow that i cannot imagine that it will ever be clean in my lifetime. Maybe for future generations....

This for sure. Moshannon will one day be a well-known large eastern trout stream. It will be another Penns/Little J. It will have some truly fantastic brown trout fishing I do believe once the acid mine damage is cleaned up.

 

[Sylvaneous]

A very interesting topic. One I think of frequently.
First and really, supremely the easiest, easier even than the Lehigh, is the Allegheny below Kinzua Dam. It holds a massive, deep, cold body of water and the mechanisms exist to do it. Yes, it has trout in it now. OK, how many people are trout fishing it on a summer weekend vs. the Delaware or any western trout river?
With the Allegheny, its a choice. The Army Corp could be mandated to keep the outflow at some reasonable trout temp, like not over 66 degrees. 1200 cfs of 66 degree water would make it a trout stream, I don't know, clear down to Warren? That's no where near too cold for a 'warm' water ecosystem to thrive. It would invent, nearly overnight, a trout float fishing guide business in an economically needy area. Writers would talk of the 2 lb browns and rainbows they caught during the brown drake hatch (which is a really great hatch up there.) It could literally happen tomorrow. AND the great Musky fishery might actually benefit from cooler releases. Yes, you could drive up a road, walk down to the river, wade out into a riffle and fish a sz. 14 caddis to gigantic heads poking through the surface like you saw on the Missouri, but without all the difficulties of fishing in flat water.

 

[Mike]

In your opinion, what stream/river has the biggest potential to become an amazing fishery in PA?

Given some of the waters listed, perhaps the above question should have read…” most realistic potential”……

 

[Sylvaneous]

The other creek with tremendous potential, and I just mentioned this, is Spring Creek below Bellefonte. It lacks habitat. A lot of it down here is flat bottomed: a gravel sluiceway. It is cold, clean, fertile, BIG and fast. (It's flowing at 179 cfs as I write in this dry spell) So much of it is devoid of habitat besides the projects like the kayak course, the McCoy Dam and the boulders at the sub station in Milesburg. Some of this water here is very fast. Even where it's flat, like below the McCoy section, it truckin' down stream at a good clip. So the marginal bank cover is even less effective at holding fish. With water quality the best it's been in 50 years or more and with the lack of any thermal issues, placing boulders in this section should be a huge benefit to the trout population,

 

[Sylvaneous]

I don't necessarily enjoy being the party pooper, but I would actively oppose any effort to convert Kinzua into a bottom release. So far as I am concerned, the dam itself is sufficient insult to the river and no additional tinkering is warranted or desirable. If there has to be a dam there (and I realize that in practical terms there probably does..), I think the fishery as it presently exists is a good compromise between CW. Cool water and WW.

Allow me to be the 1st to pile on. NO.
There would be nothing more bad from Kinzua releasing water that is 8 degrees colder than it is now (74) .
It's being 'tinkered' with constantly. It has minimum flows. That stabilizes the river all summer. That is a GOOD thing.
I don't know how many miles of warm/cool water fishery there are on the Allegheny between Warren and East Brady, but it's a LOT. Plus, at a cooler temp, the 'cool water' fishery would not be hurt at all. Muskies might benefit.

 

[Sylvaneous]

Allegheny River below Kinzua Dam sticks out for me too.

They're currently trying to manage it for both cold and warm water fish.
And releasing water from various levels.

For trout, its OK for a few months - thru late June.
By July, water temps are usually over 70 through the rest of the summer.

If it were bottom release only, it could be pretty amazing IMO

All they would have to do is mandate a lower release temp. The dam already has everything it needs. They could mandate, just for example, a 66 degree max temp. THat's good for trout and great for muskies and walleye. Give trout a thermal refuge of 1200 cfs of 66 degree water, and that will keep them over summer and have a good/great summer fishery. Or 65. Or 64. Better for trout, still great for muskies.

 

[silverfox]

This for sure. Moshannon will one day be a well-known large eastern trout stream. It will be another Penns/Little J. It will have some truly fantastic brown trout fishing I do believe once the acid mine damage is cleaned up.

This one hits close to home. The side effect will likely be the loss of one of the few fairly large intact allopatric native brook trout watersheds. That said, given what I know about the watershed, and the level of impairment there, I doubt anyone on this board will be alive when that watershed is restored enough to support BT in the mainstem. As we remediate the pollution from the headwaters down, the water in the mainstem will likely remain too acidic for BT for quite some time. So the ST will probably be the dominant species in the watershed for the rest of our lives.

Still, and I don't mind saying this because it's all private property, the headwaters is one of the most impressive brook trout populations I've seen in person. The double-edged sword I guess.

 

[Fish Sticks]

This one hits close to home. The side effect will likely be the loss of one of the few fairly large intact allopatric native brook trout watersheds. That said, given what I know about the watershed, and the level of impairment there, I doubt anyone on this board will be alive when that watershed is restored enough to support BT in the mainstem. As we remediate the pollution from the headwaters down, the water in the mainstem will likely remain too acidic for BT for quite some time. So the ST will probably be the dominant species in the watershed for the rest of our lives.

Still, and I don't mind saying this because it's all private property, the headwaters is one of the most impressive brook trout populations I've seen in person. The double-edged sword I guess.

Plus i think its going to be harder and harder to conservation wash anything having to do with making more invasive brown trout fisheries, so while the will of the angling community may be there the funding likely won’t be the further and further into the future we get. PA is stuck in the 1920’s with regards to alot of things but will only be able to sustain this time warp for so long as the contrast between what neighboring states do increases.

 

[silverfox]

Plus i think its going to be harder and harder to conservation wash anything having to do with making more invasive brown trout fisheries, so while the will of the angling community may be there the funding likely won’t be the further and further into the future we get. PA is stuck in the 1920’s with regards to alot of things but will only be able to sustain this time warp for so long as the contrast between what neighboring states do increases.

The confluence of water quality conservation and species conservation.

 

[Mike]

Allow me to be the 1st to pile on. NO.
There would be nothing more bad from Kinzua releasing water that is 8 degrees colder than it is now (74) .
It's being 'tinkered' with constantly. It has minimum flows. That stabilizes the river all summer. That is a GOOD thing.
I don't know how many miles of warm/cool water fishery there are on the Allegheny between Warren and East Brady, but it's a LOT. Plus, at a cooler temp, the 'cool water' fishery would not be hurt at all. Muskies might benefit.

It’s a no for me too following conversations with the AFM years ago about his SMB data.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It’s a no for me too following conversations with the AFM years ago about his SMB data.

Smallmouth bass would be native in that section correct? Id support managing for them there too.

 

[RLeep2]

It’s a no for me too following conversations with the AFM years ago about his SMB data.

I'm pretty sure I understand Syl's NO, but I'm not sure I understand yours, Mike. Does your NO mean the information you have on Kinzua's effect on downstream smallmouth pops was that the effect was suppressive or not all that important? I ask because conversations I had with Ron Lee way back in the mid-80's indicated that he thought the dam was overall, not good for SMB, at least as far downstream as Tidioute or West Hickory. The two things I remember best from these conversations were: 1) Ron felt the effects of the dam had moved the prime smallmouth zone on the river significantly downstream to the point that it now began at about Tionesta and extended down to roughly Emlenton and 2) Ron also seemed to believe that variations in the rate of release in order to achieve summer pool levels at the beginning of each summer boating season in the reservoir were having a negative effect on SMB spawning/nesting success for quite a ways downstream.

Which NO did you have in mind...?

 

[CRB]

SMB in the reservoir offers good fishing up through Olean, NY.
Tionesta creek offers SMB and cold water fish too.
The best SMB fishery in the state by far is Lake Erie size and numbers.
The clarion River could use some habitat work along west and east branches.

 

[jifigz]

From a conservation potential stand point: Litiz run, letort, big fishing creek, penns creek, spring creek, little J/spruce creek, honey creek, Tea creek, f

Plus i think its going to be harder and harder to conservation wash anything having to do with making more invasive brown trout fisheries, so while the will of the angling community may be there the funding likely won’t be the further and further into the future we get. PA is stuck in the 1920’s with regards to alot of things but will only be able to sustain this time warp for so long as the contrast between what neighboring states do increases.

Isn't conservation often just done by people and organizations not focused on fish species and fishing but just improving the environment and pollution? If so, I don't understand how brown trout would ever impede the actions to clean it up. That's like saying "No! We can't clean it up because brown trout might outcompete native fish! For this reason alone, let's leave it polluted." And obviously there is already the Moshannon Creek Watershed Association and they already are working towards the goal of restoration.
Wild browns are already in many of the small wild trout tributaries of the "Red Mo" intermixed with the Brookies. As moshannon Creek gets cleaner browns are already in the watershed to take over the larger water body.

 

[stecal]

Isn't conversation often just done by people and organizations not focused on fish species and fishing but just improving the environment and pollution? If so, I don't understand how brown trout would ever impede the actions to clean it up. That's like saying "No! We can't clean it up because brown trout might outcompete native fish! For this reason alone, let's leave it polluted." And obviously there is already the Moshannon Creek Watershed Association and they already are working towards the goal of restoration.
Wild browns are already in many of the small wild trout tributaries of the "Red Mo" intermixed with the Brookies. As moshannon Creek gets cleaner browns are already in the watershed to take over the larger water body.

Thanks, i didn't know about the Moshannon Creek Watershed Assoc https://moshannoncreek.org/ Donating now.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Isn't conservation often just done by people and organizations not focused on fish species and fishing but just improving the environment and pollution? If so, I don't understand how brown trout would ever impede the actions to clean it up. That's like saying "No! We can't clean it up because brown trout might outcompete native fish! For this reason alone, let's leave it polluted." And obviously there is already the Moshannon Creek Watershed Association and they already are working towards the goal of restoration.
Wild browns are already in many of the small wild trout tributaries of the "Red Mo" intermixed with the Brookies. As moshannon Creek gets cleaner browns are already in the watershed to take over the larger water body.

Invasive species don’t just hurt a single species they cause trophic cascades that ripple through the environment altering many things we know about and alot we don’t. So yes you can just do water improvement but generally thats done for the inhabitants of that water, the species.

You could just clean up the water for the sake of the water and ignore the species. Thats actually largely what we are doing now in PA actually. But if you don’t pair species conservation with water conservation you just get clean water with invasive species that results in more native species being listed as threatened or endangered. Thats not conservation. Conservation is protecting or restoring something that has a conservation need not one thats dominating every continent outsode its native range except Antarctica. Conservation with target species as wild brown trout is fishing, its no more conservation than fund raising for Jeff Bezos is charity. Everyone forgets these invasive trout species are an issue for hellbenders, endangered darters, and crayfish. WV has aknowledged the harm to these non game species. Recovering americas wilife act is aimed at non game species. I’m glad it passed its alot of money to help them. But its going to be hard if the whole volunteer conservation community and Pa fish and boat are improving brown trout habitat and stocking them and protecting them with regs where sensitive native species are.

One of the tragedies is when anglers pick invasive species and sacrifice the ecological balance native biodiversity offers is they often don’t get what they want in the end despite it. The 100 lb blue catfish in the James now are 75% biomass in the james river and stunt out at 20”. Their crashing blue claw crabs and worms and actually likey hurting stripers. No 100lb trophies just trophic cascade. Flathead lake invasove lake trout made bull trout and cuthroat trout disappear and they all stunted out took over the lake. No trophies just tiny fish. If you look at the video I posted above you’ll note someone holding a very big brown trout that came out of an infertile headwater stream. Tom clark mentions those brown trout got huge off brook trout.

Many people get excited when they find a stream that has mixed brown and brook trout because they can catch brook trout and a dee larger brown trout in same day. I see it referred to as “Perfect day”. I get it from a fishing perspective and no ill will to those folks im glad they had a good day fishing. But those brown teout arent donw there singing kumbaya like tom
Clark illustrates with the kratzer run study. When those browns extirpate those brook trout in freestoners like that your probably not going to have those big fish any more when they aren’t eating brookies. The browns will likely stunt out in many streams like the blue cats, lake trout, and many other invasive fish examples out there. So now your just left with a broken cold water ecosystem when you factor whats happening to the non game species. But the waters clean.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Invasive species don’t just hurt a single species they cause trophic cascades that ripple through the environment altering many things we know about and alot we don’t. So yes you can just do water improvement but generally thats done for the inhabitants of that water, the species.

You could just clean up the water for the sake of the water and ignore the species. Thats actually largely what we are doing now in PA actually. But if you don’t pair species conservation with water conservation you just get clean water with invasive species that results in more native species being listed as threatened or endangered. Thats not conservation. Conservation is protecting or restoring something that has a conservation need not one thats dominating every continent outsode its native range except Antarctica. Conservation with target species as wild brown trout is fishing, its no more conservation than fund raising for Jeff Bezos is charity. Everyone forgets these invasive trout species are an issue for hellbenders, endangered darters, and crayfish. WV has aknowledged the harm to these non game species. Recovering americas wilife act is aimed at non game species. I’m glad it passed its alot of money to help them. But its going to be hard if the whole volunteer conservation community and Pa fish and boat are improving brown trout habitat and stocking them and protecting them with regs where sensitive native species are.

One of the tragedies is when anglers pick invasive species and sacrifice the ecological balance native biodiversity offers is they often don’t get what they want in the end despite it. The 100 lb blue catfish in the James now are 75% biomass in the james river and stunt out at 20”. Their crashing blue claw crabs and worms and actually likey hurting stripers. No 100lb trophies just trophic cascade. Flathead lake invasove lake trout made bull trout and cuthroat trout disappear and they all stunted out took over the lake. No trophies just tiny fish. If you look at the video I posted above you’ll note someone holding a very big brown trout that came out of an infertile headwater stream. Tom clark mentions those brown trout got huge off brook trout.

Many people get excited when they find a stream that has mixed brown and brook trout because they can catch brook trout and a dee larger brown trout in same day. I see it referred to as “Perfect day”. I get it from a fishing perspective and no ill will to those folks im glad they had a good day fishing. But those brown teout arent donw there singing kumbaya like tom
Clark illustrates with the kratzer run study. When those browns extirpate those brook trout in freestoners like that your probably not going to have those big fish any more when they aren’t eating brookies. The browns will likely stunt out in many streams like the blue cats, lake trout, and many other invasive fish examples out there. So now your just left with a broken cold water ecosystem when you factor whats happening to the non game species. But the waters clean.

Isn't conservation often just done by people and organizations not focused on fish species and fishing but just improving the environment and pollution? If so, I don't understand how brown trout would ever impede the actions to clean it up. That's like saying "No! We can't clean it up because brown trout might outcompete native fish! For this reason alone, let's leave it polluted." And obviously there is already the Moshannon Creek Watershed Association and they already are working towards the goal of restoration.
Wild browns are already in many of the small wild trout tributaries of the "Red Mo" intermixed with the Brookies. As moshannon Creek gets cleaner browns are already in the watershed to take over the larger water body.

Still think these clean ups should be done but we could mitigate some of the invasive species and I’m not talking about rotenone or removal in most situations because you really need a small stream or sub watershed with a barrier. I’m just talking about not stocking invasive trout, not protecting them where native species they negatively effect exist, protecting the native game fish species. There are very exciting molecular/genetic methods of invasive species control Coming down the pipe line as well. We don’t have to stop cleaning up our waterways and we will always have blue ribbon brown trout atreams. In pa to flyfish. I’m just saying where species of greatest conservation need, threatened, or endangered species exist we make it a bit more equitable where possible.