Tips on fishing with Al's Rat and San Juan Worm

[ezatnova]

Looking for some help on using either of these flies that I've heard great things about

I've tried using a San Juan before, but never had any success. I just picked up a couple of Al's Rats but have yet to use them at all.

Mainly what I'm looking for are basic things like...should I had a shot weight to the tippet with either of them. Should I use an indicator with either. Etc....stuff like that.

FWIW I fish the Tully and the East Brandywine, the 3 or so times a year that I have the time to do so. I'm hoping to get out there Monday on a day off work, to the Tully Red Bridge area!

Thanks!

 

[gfen]

I usually put the rat 12" behind a more visible dry fly, and just fish the dry fly with the assumption my rat is doing whatever it is midge pupae do in a 12" vicinity of my dry fly.

 

[jdaddy]

Depends on where you are fishing the Tully. Red Bridge area and above has little habitat and holding water until you get to 222 bridge. Frankly, next Monday you may have a shot at some of the better holding water like the Papermill or Waterworks areas.

Are you fishing the SJ and Als in tandem? I think that would be a great idea. Generally speaking for a newer fisherman . . . small indicator with 30" or so to the SJ worm. Put a BB about 6" above the SJ worm. Drop 12" of 5x tippet off SJ and tie on the Al's Rat. If the above set up is not ticking bottom every other cast it is not deep enough, increase distance from fly to indicator or add weight depending upon current speed. Adjust indicator as needed depending upon depth of the area you are fishing. Profit.

Garys approach is reasonable for a lot of streams and even in some areas of Tully but in general I want to get my fly down deeper.

 

[gfen]

To be fair, I only really bother with the rat if I htink there's a reason to, ie midges in the air or obvious rises to them.

I've also been known to stuff one in the middle of a three fly rig, but that's just extra work for newbies. Hell, tis extra for me and I'm intermediate!

 

[bam]

For me, the rat has taken more big trout dropped off a bigger nymph than any other fly or method I've fished. That includes my favorite method... throwing 4+ inch streamers.

Jdaddy just described the rig you want to fish if you're going to the red bridge area.

 

[kyle1248]

I have been very successful in fishing Al's Rats below a heavily weighted nymph. My usual setup on most spring creeks is a heavily weighted Walts Worm with the Al's Rat tied off the bend with about 8-12'' of 5x tippet. I believe the first fly attracts the fish and then they grab the smaller Rat. I would imagine the San Juan would do the same thing. When I fish the Walts Worm/Al's Rat combo I would say 80% of my fish are all caught on the Rat.

 

[jayL]

I also fish rats and other midge larvae/pupae under heavier nymphs.

Unfortunately, I can't get over the suspicion that for every one I sting, 4-5 fish* are sucking it in and rejecting it before I even feel them with this rig. Such is life.

*4-5 more than I would normally miss with any other fly. I made these numbers up, but I feel that it's significant. You get the point.

 

[gfen]

So, evidently, I'm in the minority making the heaviest fly the last in the chain regardless of how I fish them?

Interesting.

 

[ryguyfi]

gfen wrote:

So, evidently, I'm in the minority making the heaviest fly the last in the chain regardless of how I fish them?

Interesting.

I'm in that minority too. I see how it can change things up, but I think it's called an "anchor fly" for a reason... to bring down the other flies.

 

[gfen]

To be fair, it does that if its the middle, too, and lets hte other ones dance in the current a bit more.

I might be tempted to try this, except it requires a 3 fly rig to hang it off a dry, and that moves me squarely from simpleton to inept.

 

[pete41]

if your heaviest is the dropper the tail fly lighter you won't have problems with the dropper interfering with the tippet.Other way around a bottom hugging trout will have to swim through tippet material to get to fly-the old leader shy bit.

 

[jayL]

I find that I catch most of my fish on the last fly. I attribute this to a few things:

1. I am flossing fish that quickly spit the top flies. This is a fact of life.

2. I step down in tippet size as I go down the rig. This enables better drifts for the flies on limper tippet. It also saves me flies because I usually lose the minimum.

3. The last fly obviously has fewer unnatural forces acting upon it. It's only getting dragged from one direction. I find this to be most favorable on the smallest flies.

I fish the heaviest fly last in deep water, situations where I am using no small flies, or when I am tight lining.

In most other situations, I will put the small droppers last and deal with missing fish, because I feel like the benefits can offset it.

If I take the time to tie droppers off my rig, I will often put the midge above a heavier fly. As soon as I break that rig or have to retie, it ends up at the caboose.

 

[franklin]

gfen wrote:

To be fair, it does that if its the middle, too, and lets hte other ones dance in the current a bit more.

I might be tempted to try this, except it requires a 3 fly rig to hang it off a dry, and that moves me squarely from simpleton to inept.

Same problem here. While the argument that a heavier upper fly attracts and a lighter trailing fly catches it doesn't do me any good if they are all tangled together.

 

[slackleader]

will these rigs that are mentioned here work on stockies?
andy

 

[franklin]

slackleader wrote:
will these rigs that are mentioned here work on stockies?
andy

Yes, my first experiments with tandem rigs was on the Neshaminy Creek. This was a few weeks into the season and the willing, uneducated, stockies helped me get going.

 

[ezatnova]

OP here. Wow, thanks for tall the great answers. It's funny, I've NEVER used a tandem rig...I struggle enough with just ONE fly, lol, but the thread has really turned towards that, so now I'm tempted to try it!

To one of the first responding posters...unfortunately, my 1-2 times a year that I get to the Tully red bridge area means I have very limited knowledge of what areas are what. I'm not sure what you are referencing with those different "papermill" and "waterworks" areas. Any other clarity would be great!

I guess I'll have to decide whether to jump right in with a 2 fly rig and risk getting a billion knots in my line, or losing TWO flies in the branches of a tree (I catch way more bark trout than water trout), vs sticking to one at a time.

I suppose if I try something like a heavy-ish nymph as the primary fly, I can skip the bb shot weight and just go with the rat tied off of that.

Last, I guess it makes sense that I prep some of these rigs and try to tie the rat onto the san juan the day before or something. It would drive me nuts wasting a half hour and dropping stuff, trying to do that on the water in the morning!

 

[jdaddy]

Well, get someone to tie san juans and als rat for ya. Couldn't charge you more than $.25 each for them. Don't go paying $2 for those flies in a shop. You lose them, you lose them. You really don't have to worry about getting stuck in trees as the Tully is wide open and you really don't have to worry about casting the rig so much as it's basically lobbing it upstream and getting a good drift. If you have really bad eye sight or something you could pre-rig but if you don't have a good way of keeping these rigs they are simply gonna get tangled. These aren't like tying on 24 tricos. Should be pretty simple to do on stream.

 

[ezatnova]

Thanks. I'll give it a whirl. Just doing some google map research on these "papermill" and "waterworks" areas. So, now I see them. Where might one park for waterworks or palisades type areas? I think I see what looks like some sort of parking area off of Water Road, where it ends near the creek? It looks like the last part is an unpaved road (accessable legally?)?
I had always come up the turnpike and then rt 222 to Broadcasting Rd, to Tulpehocken Rd (and parked in the red bridge rec area). But, maybe I'd take Tulpehocken Rd to Paper Mill Rd to Rebers Bridge Rd to Water Rd?

 

[jdaddy]

ezatnova wrote:
Thanks. I'll give it a whirl. Just doing some google map research on these "papermill" and "waterworks" areas. So, now I see them. Where might one park for waterworks or palisades type areas? I think I see what looks like some sort of parking area off of Water Road, where it ends near the creek? It looks like the last part is an unpaved road (accessable legally?)?
I had always come up the turnpike and then rt 222 to Broadcasting Rd, to Tulpehocken Rd (and parked in the red bridge rec area). But, maybe I'd take Tulpehocken Rd to Paper Mill Rd to Rebers Bridge Rd to Water Rd?

Yes, yes and yes. Pretty much all of Tully is in a parkway so if you see it you can park it.

 

[ezatnova]

Thanks much! Bring on that 83 degrees on Monday! I'm saying no to golf and going this route instead, so I hope I at least snag a chub, lol!