Switching flies

I also do what troutbert said, make two cuts, nice clean straight line to retie, one thing that i did when i first started was i would measure up the leader from the tippt about 16-18 inches and cut it, then retie, that gave me an indicator of that it was time to tie on more tippet, eventually you will just know from experience when to add tippet
 
On the clinch knot vs the improved clinch knot....

Ever see a chart for recommended tippet size vs hook size?

Ever wonder why/how they came up with it?

It's a rough guide to allow the clinch knot to hold properly. Seriously.

What makes the clinch knot able to hold well on a particular size of hook wire is the ability for the wraps to pinch (clinch) the "legs" that come up on either side of the hook eye, tight to the eye. Too wide of an angle, and the knot slips. It doesn't allow the tag to be pinched between the coils and the "legs" tightly enough to hold properly.

This is where the improved clinch knot is useful. It allows mismatched tippet size, to hook wire diameter better than a regular clinch knot.

Two problems with this - the improved clinch knot is a weaker knot than the regular clinch knot, and the improved clinch knot uses up more tippet when tied. The design of the improved clinch knot doesn't allow the knot to be "slid" down the tippet to the very end of the tag (more wasted tippet). Plus, it's slightly more difficult to tie, with the one extra step.

If you've read this far, you've just been "pcrayed". :-D

Here's a neat little article on the perfect clinch knot by someone that knows his stuff...

http://www.garyborger.com/2010/05/17/perfect-clinch-knot/
 
On the OT, I snip for a couple of reasons - one is to avoid the curly end that makes it difficult to tie, and two is to get rid of any frays that might be on the tippet from fighting fish, rock abrasions, etc.

If your tippet is getting too short, you can always add a length using a triple surgeons knot. Regarding the clinch vs. improved clinch, I think it was Lefty who said "An improved clinch doesn't really improve anything." Although I do use the improved clinch on streamers and poppers for smallies.
 
Heritage-Angler wrote:
Ever see a chart for recommended tippet size vs hook size?

Yeah, probably.

Heritage-Angler wrote:
Ever wonder why/how they came up with it?

No, not really. But I believe you.

Seriously, I understand you're saying. But can you explain how it uses any more than a fraction of a millimeter of extra tippet?

 
Kabutt wrote:
...can you explain how it uses any more than a fraction of a millimeter of extra tippet?

Sure. When you tie an improved clinch, the tag stays the same length when you tighten the knot.

When you tie a "regular" clinch knot, the knot allows you to slide it down snug as the tag shortens. If you're not careful, you can pull the tag right through the knot. Ever done that?

A long time ago, I was taught to tighten the clinch knot by holding the tag against the shank of the hook, and pulling on the standing end. With a bit of practice, you can get the tag end so short, it doesn't need trimming.

Winding up with a tag so short it doesn't need trimming is much tougher to accomplish with an improved clinch knot.

Try it.

You may/may not have seen those charts with recommended tippet size vs fly size, but you've probably heard of the rule of thumb that does the same thing.

Divide the size of the fly by 3, and you have the right size of tippet. For example, if you have a size 12 fly, divide 12 by 3, and you get 4 - or 4X tippet. Sound more familiar?
 
The tag does indeed stay the same length, ie., everything stays right where it is while I'm seating the knot, which is just what I prefer. As I'm sure you know, friction/heat caused when the tippet rubs against itself weakens it. You're pulling all that extra material back through the coils, creating that friction/heat. My proficiency at tying the knot allows me to do so with a very short tag; I suppose this is not true for everyone.
 
Yeah, with the regular clinch, the tag definitely shortens. I often don't have to trim the tag after tying, but not always.

You can eliminate the heat thing with a little spit. I just run the untightened knot through my mouth before tightening. Lubricates it.

I pretty much always use the rule of 4+1. Divide by 4, add one. A 16 is 16/4 = 4. +1 is 5x. Yeah, until you get real small, it's awfully similar to the rule of 3.
 
You don't completely eliminate friction by lubing with saliva. You greatly reduce it, yes, but it still happens. Of course I do this also - lubing your knots before tightening should be standard practice.

It's all good - I do what I do because it works for me. I'll stay away from the beginner forum I guess. I'll just stick to posting carp pics in the brownlining dump.

Edit: not gonna be 'that guy'
 
Kabutt wrote:
Last time I posted in the beginner forum to try to point a newb toward some nice, less crowded water on the LL, HA was very quick to post contrary information. As if I didn't know what I was talking about. Just because I don't have 7000 posts doesn't mean I don't have 20 years of fly fishing experience under my belt.

Are you referring to the post where someone (you?) recommended fishing above the hatchery? I agreed with that, and also offered information that fishing well downstream of the regs waters was good too.

Why so hostile? We're all here to help the newbies. Any information that helps with their learning process is a good thing.
 
Haha I just edited my comment because I reread it, and yeah, I sounded hostile. This wasn't my intended tone.

Yep that was me. But that's not quite how the post went, you said something like "yeah. that can be good, but this is better". And then like three other people followed with "do what HA says, he knows his stuff"... Put yourself in my shoes in that situation...

This is a message board. The many nuances of human communication cannot be conveyed via text only. I know you're trying to help, as are we all. I'm not mad at ya.
 
That I can understand, and sympathize with.

We've all walked a slightly different path in our FF journey, and there is no one single authority on all things FF.

I think it's important for people to share what they know. Please, don't let anyone (especially me) keep you from sharing knowledge.



 
Heritage-Angler wrote:
Divide the size of the fly by 3, and you have the right size of tippet. For example, if you have a size 12 fly, divide 12 by 3, and you get 4 - or 4X tippet. Sound more familiar?

12 divided by 3 equals 4X

16 divided by 3 equals 5X

20 divided by 3 equala 6X

24 divided by 3 equals..............................Nope not going there! :pint:
 
Heritage-Angler wrote:
On the clinch knot vs the improved clinch knot....

Ever see a chart for recommended tippet size vs hook size?

Ever wonder why/how they came up with it?

It's a rough guide to allow the clinch knot to hold properly. Seriously.

What makes the clinch knot able to hold well on a particular size of hook wire is the ability for the wraps to pinch (clinch) the "legs" that come up on either side of the hook eye, tight to the eye. Too wide of an angle, and the knot slips. It doesn't allow the tag to be pinched between the coils and the "legs" tightly enough to hold properly.

This is where the improved clinch knot is useful. It allows mismatched tippet size, to hook wire diameter better than a regular clinch knot.

Two problems with this - the improved clinch knot is a weaker knot than the regular clinch knot, and the improved clinch knot uses up more tippet when tied. The design of the improved clinch knot doesn't allow the knot to be "slid" down the tippet to the very end of the tag (more wasted tippet). Plus, it's slightly more difficult to tie, with the one extra step.

If you've read this far, you've just been "pcrayed". :-D

Here's a neat little article on the perfect clinch knot by someone that knows his stuff...

http://www.garyborger.com/2010/05/17/perfect-clinch-knot/
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I have not used this knot because I did not know how to tie it correctly. Thank you!!
Sean
 
Tippet rings - Ed rigged me up with them a few weeks ago; I'm going to purchase a few b4 fall b/ I value the opinions I get here. My questions are:

When using a ring, leader to tippet clinch knot if I remember?

Besides maybe being easier to tie the leader and tippet, what is the value of a tippet ring?



//excuse me b/ I'm to lazy to google it and read thru tons of links with different opinions.
 
Stag, my opinion is that tippet ring's biggest value is that they allow you to keep your leader in tact while allowing quick additions of new tippet. Clinch knot is the knot I use.
 
Foxgap239 wrote:
24 divided by 3 equals..............................Nope not going there! :pint:

Ran out of fingers and toes to count with, did 'ya? :cool:
 
Heritage-Angler wrote:
We've all walked a slightly different path in our FF journey, and there is no one single authority on all things FF.

Very true. I've had very little guidance in mine, figuring things out on my own, and perhaps this lends to the sense of hostility I'm unintentionally giving off...

Anyway, tippet rings. I can't imagine why you'd want a piece of metal on your leader unless it's shot. Don't they sink? This seems like just one more thing to fiddle with... and now you have two knots to tie, not just one. Why not just use a surgeon's knot to attach tippet to leader?
 
Kabutt, your comments about forum communication are accurate, in that tones can never really be conveyed well in writing, especially when folks are cranking out responses in between work emails and such. However, I will also add that this forum is a bit unique in that many of the members have met and fished together. Putting a face to name, observing forum members interact with others is very valuable when determining their creditibility, as well as their mannerisms on the forum.

My point? When you have time, try to join one of the outings. I know it's not everyone's thing and sometimes folks can only find time to fish and not socialize, but if you get a chance I can tell you it was fun. And I think even HA learned something at the last one, so these aren't just for the newbies.

All of the above said, I've only met HA once, but my brother has fished with him for years. Damn near killed him actually, but that didn't involve a rod. Still, HA was brave enough to mountain bike with my brother on another occasion, so he wins some points for bravery at least.

Tippet Rings: These rings are so tiny, the manufacturer actually draws a large arrow with a sharpie, to indicate where the rings are located in their package. Honestly, I doubt the titanium rings weigh much more than a bloodknot knot of 1x tippet.

To the OP, leaders are available with the tippet ring already connected. While I'm certainly no expert, my brother continues to fish them with excellent results. And he's been fishing a lot longer than mountain biking... There can be tradeoffs with any equipment, but he hasn't found these to be lacking in poerformance.
 
+1 ^ re: joining the outings. Speaking of 'outing', one can clearly see the benefit of lifelong partnerships (like Heretic Angler's and the Silver Fox) when it comes to sharing plenty of tested knowledge and good natured ribbing. As for knots, how about the Davey knot for newbs? Simple yet elegant.
 
Here are a couple reasons to use tippet rings(reasons I use them).
1. I find it much easier to tie two trilene knots over one blood knot/uni knot/surgeons knot. added on top of this, the trilene is stronger than the surgeons knot, which of the three listed is the fastest and easiest.
2. A tippet ring allows me to do a 3x knotless leader cut down to where it is probably 0-1x(mono) directly to 5x/4x tippet(flouro). I am not sure if the myth of "mono to flouro connections should be avoided" is true, but tippet rings negates it. Second, I cant do 0x to 5x via a blood knot, or a double uni knot, and i dont think a triple surgeons knot would hold either.
3. I love the 3 points of connections I have in my leader. I dont view bits of metal in my leader as a bad thing at all. I have the knotless leader to tippet ring A, then 4'+ of tippet to tippet ring B, then 6-12" of tippet to fly A. First, these metal connections happen at points in your setup where other things should be placed--indicator(if needed) and shot(always needed). As unfortunate as it is, indicators slide sometimes, and shot always slides on 5x flouro. Tippet ring B acts as a stopper for the split shot, so it doesnt slide down to the nose of my point fly. This is cool, but the best part is the flexibility and speed at which I can adapt my leader to the situation at hand. The indicator stays in the same position on my leader, but I can adapt the length of level tippet to to be tailored to the approprate length. Same goes for the distance from my point fly to my shot. Obviously you go through the 8-12" of tippet in a day of fishing, so its pretty simple to tie on another foot long piece of tippet to my second tippet ring.

I find tippet rings really simplify the leader system and make it as flexible and effective as i need it to be when i am on the stream. Fishing 5' of level tippet can be amazing for nymphing.
Oh and to the OP asking about knots and tippet rings etc. go for the trilene knot. I know everyone loves the clinch knot, and its brother the improved, they just arent that strong. I still tie these knots, but the trilene trumps them all and is only a step more. It has a 95-100% breaking strength. I think the improved clinch is around 60-70%

Thats my 2 cents!
 
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