SW PA truly is a trout "desert"!

[caddisflyer]

Again...IN GENERAL. I think the generality is true-compared to Central PA, there are more wild trout streams in NCPA, but a lot of them are smaller w/ smaller fish.

That's what I was getting at. If you look at that map the NC area is covered with class A streams but MOST are very small and average fish are under 10"...probably less in most streams on there. There are a few streams known for bigger Browns but I suspect a lot of them are stockers (not all but many).

 

[JK Reed]

I live in the NW corner of Washington County; we have to drive 90 minutes to our cabin in the Laurel Highlands to get into any wild trout. But there's quite a few nice streams there.

 

[turkey]

Again...IN GENERAL. I think the generality is true-compared to Central PA, there are more wild trout streams in NCPA, but a lot of them are smaller w/ smaller fish.

If you could name some of streams with larger wild fish and add pins for convenience, I'll tell you the streams that have 8" fish so you don't have to waste your time 😉

 

[BradFromPotter]

That's what I was getting at. If you look at that map the NC area is covered with class A streams but MOST are very small and average fish are under 10"...probably less in most streams on there. There are a few streams known for bigger Browns but I suspect a lot of them are stockers (not all but many).

yeah, keep telling everyone that!! Good job!

 

[troutbert]

There are a few streams known for bigger Browns but I suspect a lot of them are stockers (not all but many).

Many people refer to wild browns as "holdovers."

It's a PA tradition.

 

[Swattie87]

Many people refer to wild browns as "holdovers."

It's a PA tradition.

They’re either “Native Browns” or “holdovers”.

 

[poopdeck]

That's what I was getting at. If you look at that map the NC area is covered with class A streams but MOST are very small and average fish are under 10"...probably less in most streams on there. There are a few streams known for bigger Browns but I suspect a lot of them are stockers (not all but many).

Most definitely less. In fact if you drop from the map all streams where the average wild/native trout is 10” or less the vast majority of the state would be a trout desert.

 

[caddisflyer]

Most definitely less. In fact if you drop from the map all streams where the average wild/native trout is 10” or less the vast majority of the state would be a trout desert.

Dinksylvania

 

[TroutHunter814]

I live here too. Armstrong Co.
Yep… it is a bit true, but if you want to play the game… you gotta go where the game is!
What a difference an hour drive makes.

 

[Sylvaneous]

I never realized how much of a trout desert southwestern PA was until I zoomed out to the state level that shows stocked, Class A, and Natural Repro water. You folks in SW PA really are wild trout challenged! 😥 A map such as this really shows where an angler's efforts should be focused should they desire to chase wild trout.

View attachment 1641236184

I see I was fortunate enough to be born and now live in that upper-left 'teat' of wild trout water that oddly nearly matches up with the boarders of Venango County. Comparatively, it looks to be part of the greatest density of trout streams. I'm surprised this density isn't reflected in more regions. But what is up with Bradford county? Is that some graphical error?
And where did this map come from ?
Syl

 

[lycoflyfisher]

The northern parts of Tioga, more of bradford and susquehanna are glaciated. A lot of the streams get very warm in the summer time. The fertile soils support a lot of ag. The streams move a ton of material and want to move across their floodplains. Lots of historical modifications to straighten streams to build roads, farm and build farmsteads. Due to the geology and degraded geomorphic conditions, alot of the smaller streams have extremely low flows during the summer months.

 

[Mike]

The northern parts of Tioga, more of bradford and susquehanna are glaciated. A lot of the streams get very warm in the summer time. The fertile soils support a lot of ag. The streams move a ton of material and want to move across their floodplains. Lots of historical modifications to straighten streams to build roads, farm and build farmsteads. Due to the geology and degraded geomorphic conditions, alot of the smaller streams have extremely low flows during the summer months.

Regarding Bradford, I’d add that under the typical summer low flows even a number of the stocked trout sections, which are normally farther down in the drainage basin than typical wild sections would be almost anywhere else, have fairly poor habitat as I recall. Shallow, warm, occasional pools, and fairly low gradient.

I’d add that if you look at York Co on the map, depending upon where one lives in the county it’s also a case of the haves and have nots regarding wild trout. Fortunately for my sanity in a substantially urbanized/suburbanized region, I covered the “have” portion of York Co.

 

[TimMurphy]

Regarding Bradford, I’d add that under the typical summer low flows even a number of the stocked trout sections, which are normally farther down in the drainage basin than typical wild sections would be almost anywhere else, have fairly poor habitat as I recall. Shallow, warm, occasional pools, and fairly low gradient.

Dear Mike,

Lycoflyfisher described things well. The entire Northern Tier PA/Southern NY border counties are pretty much just giant glacial gravel pits, at least within 20 miles or so of the State line. There are some bluestone hard rock sections, but for the most part kids digging in their backyards could level 2400 foot high mountains given enough time, and a sturdy steel spoon from Grandma's kitchen. Having lived there for many years everything is subject to frequent flash flooding.

When Salt Lick Creek south of Hallstead PA became a DHALO stream about 30 years I fished it often because it was only 25-30 minutes from my home in Windsor NY. It was a reliable fishery in the beginning. We fished over hatches and we sometimes caught stream born brown trout and even a few brook trout. But several years of flash floods reduced the stream to an 80 foot wide glacial wash with 10 to 15 feet of flowing water.

Things weren't much better north of the border either. I fished NYS from Steuben County all across to the east. It wasn't until I got to the Catskills that I could find reliable trout fishing, save for a couple pee-across cricks I found in the hills and dales.. But the walleye and smallmouth bass fishing was lights out good. There were also many lakes that held panfish and bass that would make the average PA warmwater fly fisher think they hooked a snag, instead of a fish.

I'm not complaining about it though. I'm glad I'm back home in PA. We have a diverse fishery thanks to folks like yourself!

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[troutbert]

The northern parts of Tioga, more of bradford and susquehanna are glaciated. A lot of the streams get very warm in the summer time. The fertile soils support a lot of ag. The streams move a ton of material and want to move across their floodplains. Lots of historical modifications to straighten streams to build roads, farm and build farmsteads. Due to the geology and degraded geomorphic conditions, alot of the smaller streams have extremely low flows during the summer months.

I think it's likely that the streams in Bradford and Susquehanna counties originally supported native brook trout. But those glaciated lands are flat enough for farming, so the trees were removed, the land was farmed and the streams were moved to edges of the floodplains to "square up" the fields. The streams are channelized ditches that have been repeatedly dug out to try to limit flood damage to farms, houses, roads, businesses, etc.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Agreed Tim, there are an immense number of farm ponds and small impoundments that offer exceptional fishing. Hills Creek, Cowanesque, Tioga, Hammond lakes and some other small ones offer great panfishing, bass and some other opportunities. The North Branch is good for river fishing, but that area as a whole leaves a lot to be desired for trout fishing.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Also agreed troutbert, take Wysox creek watershed as an example. There are roads, impoundments, houses, farms etc all as a result of straightening the stream and relocating it to one side of the valley as you go north on 187 towards and above Rome in Bradford Co. If we had left well enough alone and allowed that stream to meander across its floodplain as it would have, it would be really neat to see what temperatures would have been like as well as aquatic communities.

 

[dryflyguy]

I've gotten quite used to driving 1-2 hours for good fishing.
Not bad at all when I can stay at least a night or 2
Been doing it for over 40 years.

Now that I'm retired, I could move closer to good fishing.
But both of us would really miss being around the grand kids - they are special.

FWIW - over long hot summers, even the central PA limestone streams can get too warm to fish.
However, us Yinzers have a pretty nice tailwater, that has water temps in the 50's all summer long - the Youghiogheny river.
So, I wouldn't say this end of the state is a total desert....

 

[Mike]

Also agreed troutbert, take Wysox creek watershed as an example. There are roads, impoundments, houses, farms etc all as a result of straightening the stream and relocating it to one side of the valley as you go north on 187 towards and above Rome in Bradford Co. If we had left well enough alone and allowed that stream to meander across its floodplain as it would have, it would be really neat to see what temperatures would have been like as well as aquatic communities.

I can’t specifically speak to Bradford Co in this regard, but leaving well-enough alone was not in the cards elsewhere in the general region during the time period and years following Hurricane Agnes in 1972. Creeks were bulldozed/channelized and my impression was that proposals for this sad “remedy” continued for a number of years, as I recall discussions about such proposals still taking place during the mid-1970’s.

Yes, Tim you fellows are right about the gravel (and similarly shaped/worn rubble) in the streams up there. I recalled that but forgot to mention it in my description of some stocked streams that I surveyed. In my mind’s eye I may have even confused some Susquehanna Co sampling sites with Bradford Co, but I think the terrain was pretty similar. I’ll have to search my old survey records.

After revisiting the wild and stocked streams lists last evening from Bradford Co in addition to one or two stocked streams I think I surveyed, I guess I was fortunate to have participated in the Gaylord Ck survey as well where habitat and surroundings were different and the stream met the Class A biomass standard established later on.

Throwing a bone to the SW, I did get to survey a few streams (Greene Co) and 3 major rivers down there, but they were all warmwater stream surveys.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

In bradford co the bulldozers were very active after 72 and still are today...

The damage from straightening streams, building roads, barns and houses where the stream used to be was done century(s) prior. Now we are stuck in the perpetual and regular "cleaning" of streams to protect infrastructure. I knoe this is an issue across the state, certainly in swpa as well. However, imo it seems worse in the glaciated regions and the impacts to aquatic resources are high.

 

[troutbert]

The bulldozers were also very active in that area after the January 1996 rain-on-snow flood. I have the photos (35 mm slides!).

Cowanesque River was dug out by heavy machinery, not here and there in certain spots, but the whole thing. And its tributaries.

It was sad to see guys trout fishing there that spring in a gouged out stream. They still stocked it, even after reaming it out with bulldozers.

When I showed photos of this at some meeting, one guy said "Yes, but Cowanesque River isn't a good trout stream." Well, of course it's not. It's been channelized/dredged repeatedly, probably since the 1800s.