Study just completed: stream restoration likely only beneficial to native brook trout when non-native trout are not present.

[lycoflyfisher]

I know there are brookies in that watershed already, fish can obviously survive in the hatchery, and the white scum and high nutrients are not all from the overpopulated hatchery tanks full of stocked fish releasing their waste?

An industrial meat packing plant that spreads its wastewater and animal waste and byproducts throughout this and adjacent watersheds via land application is of no concern. Neither are folks who pump manure directly into sinkholes....

At least PFBC hatcheries have NPDES permits that include specific parameters that the discharges have to meet similar to other industrial operations. The same can not be said for other fish production facilities around the state.

 

[Fish Sticks]

An industrial meat packing plant that spreads its wastewater and animal waste and byproducts throughout this and adjacent watersheds via land application is of no concern. Neither are folks who pump manure directly into sinkholes....

At least PFBC hatcheries have NPDES permits that include specific parameters that the discharges have to meet similar to other industrial operations. The same can not be said for other fish production facilities around the state.

Yea I know about Nicholas meats I’m not a fan either. And yes hatcheries meet effluent standards but I don’t like that they use growing greener grant money that could go to real restoration to clean up this effluents instead of raising less fish since stocking over wild brook trout has been identified as a big issue in Pa by EBTJV based on priorities list. Water quality isn’t good but it did improve.

.” In the case of the Tylersville trout hatchery located on Fishing Creek, there was moderate to severe impairment caused by the hatchery in 2001 and 2002. As the hatchery continued to update and improve their waste treatment facility, a recommendation was made by the DEP to remove the section of Fishing Creek just downstream of the hatchery from the list of impaired waters.”

From

https://coldwaterheritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/fishing-creek-and-ceadr-run.pdf

I am very concerned about Nicholas meats and the water quality issues and have talked with SRBC and others trying to get something done on this issue. I’ve written letters talked to legislators so I wouldn’t say “I’m not concerned”.


I’m just saying despite all that there are stable cold temps and brook trout in there and we should try our best to make it better for them instead of the usual defeatist mentality or “we can’t attitude”.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

So PFBC made upgrades to better treat its effluent from the Tylersville hatchery, which resulted in water quality improvements. Many agencies and NGOs have undertaken significant action to improve water quality and land use practices in the watershed and you interpret all of that as a defeatist mentality.

 

[silverfox]

Have you ever seen the spring at Tylersville in person? Much of it flows directly into Fishing Creek.

You may benefit from researching that watershed to examine significant threats to the water quality of that spring....

Serious question (I'm not being smart here), what is the white filamentous stuff in the outflow of the hatchery there? I assume it's some kind of algae that likes some parameter of the discharge? I've never seen that anywhere except for the outflows of hatcheries. I know the ditch from Renyoldsville has it and I think I remember that stuff in the outflow on Big Spring back when the hatchery was in operation there.

I always assumed it probably looks worse than it really is.

Let's not forget increasing water withdrawal requests in these groundwater systems. Does anyone have any kind of mapping of the groundwater network to see where issues might impact the streams that originate far from the spring source? I don't recall where at this point, but I think I remember reading that a sinkhole down by Shippensburg might contribute to Big Spring's water? So it's not even just what's done within the stream corridor with these spring creeks, but sometimes things that are done miles away.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So PFBC made upgrades to better treat its effluent from the Tylersville hatchery, which resulted in water quality improvements. Many agencies and NGOs have undertaken significant action to improve water quality and land use practices in the watershed and you interpret all of that as a defeatist mentality.

That’s water quality improvements, not the same as managing for brook trout. When it comes to water quality we all agree and can sing coumbaya, improve it. It makes us all, myself included, feel warm and fuzzy when it improves.

Native brook trout defeatism is when we solely focus on issues like water quality or habitat that, while not ideal, are not a deal breaker by themselves or together in many watersheds where biotic interactions, connectivity( from Culverts and invasive species), and hydrology is ignored or potential wasted.

When eastern brook trout joint venture tells you invasive species are the fourth largest threat to native brook trout and the number one biological threat and you ignore it statewide in Pa and continue the irresponsible stocking. That’s native brook trout defeatism.

When you can’t even manage for native brook trout in one waterway by discontinuing stocking, making them C and R, and encouraging harvest or removal of non natives despite other all or most of this near by, that’s native brook trout defeatism.

When we have tried only one introduction that has failed for native brook trout at the commission and some volunteers do it on their first try and we aren’t optimistic about replicating that. That’s native brook trout defeatism.

Don’t confuse managing the water itself or blindly managing for “more trout” to be managing for native brook trout. Unless we stop shooting ourselves in the foot with the effects of irresponsible stocking causing competiton, propping up wild invasive species with stocking through propagule pressure, and hatcheries negative effects on brook trout streams it’s not in good faith, we have the data to know that.

We removed the hatchery on big spring and look what happened we saved that population. Your going to have a hard time painting this as such a radical crazy idea and that the commission is doing the best it can when we have already removed a hatchery and seen benefit. And we can deny deny and point to all the scary things but the point is everything I am mentioning has been done and there is just no will to repeat it because we would have to sa carried the almighty stocked trout and the free floating anxiety of changing anything or actually managing for the resource is too great. To many legislators I’ve seen that want to be able to get the YouTube video of them dumping in their constituents trout at no cost to the general fund and no expenditure of political capital. We saw what happened when John Arway wanted to reduce the stockings because the fee increase wasn’t supported. This system is just too big makes no sense and there’s so much tied up in the antiquated dinosaur that is Pa fish and boat. The license sales keeping the Agency afloat is like the fox watching the henhouse when it comes to the moral decisions about stocking vs. managing for native fish.

 

[pcray1231]

The license sales keeping the Agency afloat is like the fox watching the henhouse when it comes to the moral decisions about stocking vs. managing for native fish.

True. And as an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and become hooked, I can say I agree with you. A TU member, have been involved in conservancies, contributing monetarily and when possible volunteering, spreading the good word, advocating for water quality improvements.

But I also try to keep in mind I would not be an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and became hooked, without the white truck fleet. My dad used to be there when they stocked to make sure a hole that was easy to fish from shore was stocked, and then carry me on his back across Tionesta Creek away from the crowds and set me up there. That's how I started. Today, limestone springs in Myerstown on the upper Tulpehocken was mentioned in this thread. Yes, I agree, it's a crying shame, almost feels criminal that such a high quality spring is used in this way and degrades a fishery. They have quite the racket going on there! But guess what? I took my 7 year old there a week and a half ago. He was struggling and getting skunked all morning. Rather than see him get discouraged after a morning of fishing and not catching, we jumped in the car and drove to limestone springs to save the day. It's like cheating. It's ridiculous there. And yes I took the opportunity to explain to him that it wasn't real fishing, it was fun but that was man made, daddy paid for them to put those fish there for him to catch, and he understands 100%. But he was super proud of catching 20" rainbows all by himself, cast himself and all. All daddy did was net them. Now I have a 7 year old begging me to take him fishing again, and now determined to succeed the "right way." He is casting a fly rod in my yard. That is perhaps a future conservationist that limestone springs fishing preserve made.

A balance has to be achieved. Anglers fishing for wild brown trout and stocked trout are the reason acid rain from the Ohio Valley is declining, they are reason water quality standards were put in place, they help fund acid mine remediation projects, and many other positive factors. I'm not saying they're always right. I have grown too. But, it is the entry way. Taking kids, pre-teens, and teens miles into the woods through impossible terrain where there's no cell coverage to catch 6" specs is not going to create the next generation. At the same time, completely ignoring conservation concerns in favor of easy catching of big fish is stealing from the next generation. A balance has to be achieved.

 

[Fish Sticks]

True. And as an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and become hooked, I can say I agree with you. A TU member, have been involved in conservancies, contributing monetarily and when possible volunteering, spreading the good word, advocating for water quality improvements.

But I also try to keep in mind I would not be an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and became hooked, without the white truck fleet. My dad used to be there when they stocked to make sure a hole that was easy to fish from shore was stocked, and then carry me on his back across Tionesta Creek away from the crowds and set me up there. That's how I started. Today, limestone springs in Myerstown on the upper Tulpehocken was mentioned in this thread. Yes, I agree, it's a crying shame, almost feels criminal that such a high quality spring is used in this way and degrades a fishery. They have quite the racket going on there! But guess what? I took my 7 year old there a week and a half ago. He was struggling and getting skunked all morning. Rather than see him get discouraged after a morning of fishing and not catching, we jumped in the car and drove to limestone springs to save the day. It's like cheating. It's ridiculous there. And yes I took the opportunity to explain to him that it wasn't real fishing, it was fun but that was man made, daddy paid for them to put those fish there for him to catch, and he understands 100%. But he was super proud of catching 20" rainbows all by himself, cast himself and all. All daddy did was net them. Now I have a 7 year old begging me to take him fishing again, and now determined to succeed the "right way." He is casting a fly rod in my yard. That is perhaps a future conservationist that limestone springs fishing preserve made.

A balance has to be achieved. Anglers fishing for wild brown trout and stocked trout are the reason acid rain from the Ohio Valley is declining, they are reason water quality standards were put in place, they help fund acid mine remediation projects, and many other positive factors. I'm not saying they're always right. I have grown too. But, it is the entry way. Taking kids, pre-teens, and teens miles into the woods through impossible terrain where there's no cell coverage to catch 6" specs is not going to create the next generation. At the same time, completely ignoring conservation concerns in favor of easy catching of big fish is stealing from the next generation. A balance has to be achieved.

I agree there has to be a balance. And stocked fish are definitely not going away. I would say i got my start fishing for stocked fish too and I think warm municipal/park ponds In the early season where people can access them is the key. Like you said no one wants to trudge into the sticks with their kids and that’s where a lot of these examples of harmful stocking are occurring. Given most stocked trout die by summer warm ponds in parks not connected to cold water fisheries make alot of sense for good places to achieve that balance. Most of these ponds hold numerous invasive species already anyway. That would be a good way to achieve the important balance your talking about. These are places these kids can ride their bikes instead of having to have their parents drive them to some remote 30 min drive into state park or SGL where they are stocking over native brook trout in bald eagle state park, potter county, or any other area with brook trout. You bring up an excellent point, if it has brook trout it’s probably an access issue anyway. And as for wild brown trout I enjoy catching them and I think the hard part will be finding a balance in the direction of where can’t we find them as they take over more brook trout water ways. I think in a few small places with 3-5” average brown trout no one values as a fishery anyway would be a good place to achieve that balance. For instance kettle above the Alvin bush I have heard multiple guides say no one cares about the wild brown trout fishery their. As things warm the stocking of brown trout there only adds to propagule pressure advance stage of invasion in that watershed by the wild population. If stocking was stopped there, and mandatory harvest on brown trout even without removal you could potentially get expansion of brook trout and biotic resistance to invasion to an extent through competition even if you don’t do a formal brown trout removal project would be free/money saving to try. Worst comes to worst it doesn’t work they can just stock it again and you lose nothing because it was just stocked fish and stocked decendents to begin with. I see a situation like that and what WV, MD,NY, and NJ are doing for brook trout and the positive public perception/wide acceptance and think if it’s free and an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure what is the fish commission waiting for?

 

[silverfox]

True. And as an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and become hooked, I can say I agree with you. A TU member, have been involved in conservancies, contributing monetarily and when possible volunteering, spreading the good word, advocating for water quality improvements.

But I also try to keep in mind I would not be an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and became hooked, without the white truck fleet. My dad used to be there when they stocked to make sure a hole that was easy to fish from shore was stocked, and then carry me on his back across Tionesta Creek away from the crowds and set me up there. That's how I started. Today, limestone springs in Myerstown on the upper Tulpehocken was mentioned in this thread. Yes, I agree, it's a crying shame, almost feels criminal that such a high quality spring is used in this way and degrades a fishery. They have quite the racket going on there! But guess what? I took my 7 year old there a week and a half ago. He was struggling and getting skunked all morning. Rather than see him get discouraged after a morning of fishing and not catching, we jumped in the car and drove to limestone springs to save the day. It's like cheating. It's ridiculous there. And yes I took the opportunity to explain to him that it wasn't real fishing, it was fun but that was man made, daddy paid for them to put those fish there for him to catch, and he understands 100%. But he was super proud of catching 20" rainbows all by himself, cast himself and all. All daddy did was net them. Now I have a 7 year old begging me to take him fishing again, and now determined to succeed the "right way." He is casting a fly rod in my yard. That is perhaps a future conservationist that limestone springs fishing preserve made.

A balance has to be achieved. Anglers fishing for wild brown trout and stocked trout are the reason acid rain from the Ohio Valley is declining, they are reason water quality standards were put in place, they help fund acid mine remediation projects, and many other positive factors. I'm not saying they're always right. I have grown too. But, it is the entry way. Taking kids, pre-teens, and teens miles into the woods through impossible terrain where there's no cell coverage to catch 6" specs is not going to create the next generation. At the same time, completely ignoring conservation concerns in favor of easy catching of big fish is stealing from the next generation. A balance has to be achieved.

I'm sorry, but as a father of 2 girls (age 13 and 17), I have to wholeheartedly disagree that stocked trout are required to get kids interested in fishing. The 17 year old is on track to start at PSU in biology in a year and a half. As much as I'd love her to be an ichthyologist, I think she has her heart set on marine life.

Even going back to my beginnings, I fished from the time I was old enough to walk, and it was bluegills in a farm pond. I've been obsessed with fish from as far back as I can remember. I actually attribute that to the small troutless stream next to the house I grew up in. I spent every day of my summers catching crayfish, water snakes, and dace.

My father was an antique dealer and when I wasn't in school or fishing, I was dragged along to auctions outdoor antique sales all over Pennsylvania. When we would go to these auctions and whatnot, I would disappear to find the nearest drainage ditch or anything with water in it to sift through whatever life I could find.

Neither of my girls cared about stocked trout. Honestly, neither really care about trout at all. Even wild brook trout. They do love warmwater/coolwater species though. My youngest's favorite fish is Muskellunge. Her favorite fish to fish for is smallmouth bass. My oldest just likes to fish and doesn't care what for. Both obviously have a feeling about stocked trout at this point. I know my youngest is very opinionated about that. She wore one of my fly fishing shirts to school the other day and was defending wild native trout (I've created a monster) with some boys in the fishing club.

We're the ones dragging our kids to the stocked trout streams and espousing the importance of salmonids because that's what we're interested in. We could foster that same enthusiasm by netting some minnow species or playing in some small troutless tributary just as easily as we can take them to try to catch yellow trout curiosities.

I think encouraging our kids to explore the outdoors is the most important thing we can do to foster an appreciation for our environment.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I'm sorry, but as a father of 2 girls (age 13 and 17), I have to wholeheartedly disagree that stocked trout are required to get kids interested in fishing. The 17 year old is on track to start at PSU in biology in a year and a half. As much as I'd love her to be an ichthyologist, I think she has her heart set on marine life.

Even going back to my beginnings, I fished from the time I was old enough to walk, and it was bluegills in a farm pond. I've been obsessed with fish from as far back as I can remember. I actually attribute that to the small troutless stream next to the house I grew up in. I spent every day of my summers catching crayfish, water snakes, and dace.

My father was an antique dealer and when I wasn't in school or fishing, I was dragged along to auctions outdoor antique sales all over Pennsylvania. When we would go to these auctions and whatnot, I would disappear to find the nearest drainage ditch or anything with water in it to sift through whatever life I could find.

Neither of my girls cared about stocked trout. Honestly, neither really care about trout at all. Even wild brook trout. They do love warmwater/coolwater species though. My youngest's favorite fish is Muskellunge. Her favorite fish to fish for is smallmouth bass. My oldest just likes to fish and doesn't care what for. Both obviously have a feeling about stocked trout at this point. I know my youngest is very opinionated about that. She wore one of my fly fishing shirts to school the other day and was defending wild native trout (I've created a monster) with some boys in the fishing club.

We're the ones dragging our kids to the stocked trout streams and espousing the importance of salmonids because that's what we're interested in. We could foster that same enthusiasm by netting some minnow species or playing in some small troutless tributary just as easily as we can take them to try to catch yellow trout curiosities.

I think encouraging our kids to explore the outdoors is the most important thing we can do to foster an appreciation for our environment.

One thing I will say is I took my little cousin fishing and we caught 30 fall fish in an evening and he was fascinated by the bugs, the cray fish and loved feeling them in and the fight. He had never fished before he was a clean slate so to speak. I do think stocking is a learned social behavior land that there is a wide general fear that fishing opportunities for children will dry up if they are gone. The funniest thing like silver fox pointed out is the kids don’t really care about stocked trout until we teach them too. Blue gills, cat fish, fall fish, pickerel, bass all very willing. It seems the hatchery process changes the fish itself to facilitate the catch instead of placing the emphasis on the importance of the environment and picking species to introduce kids to in-line with their skill set. Some species are just harder to catch and changing the species to make them catchable just seems rigid wasteful and ecologically harmful in the case of stocked invasive trout. Especially when there are pan fish in lakes, fall fish in streams and they all bend the rod and get the kids excited.

 

[JeffP]

True. And as an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and become hooked, I can say I agree with you. A TU member, have been involved in conservancies, contributing monetarily and when possible volunteering, spreading the good word, advocating for water quality improvements.

But I also try to keep in mind I would not be an adult, avid fisherman who has found wild trout and became hooked, without the white truck fleet. My dad used to be there when they stocked to make sure a hole that was easy to fish from shore was stocked, and then carry me on his back across Tionesta Creek away from the crowds and set me up there. That's how I started. Today, limestone springs in Myerstown on the upper Tulpehocken was mentioned in this thread. Yes, I agree, it's a crying shame, almost feels criminal that such a high quality spring is used in this way and degrades a fishery. They have quite the racket going on there! But guess what? I took my 7 year old there a week and a half ago. He was struggling and getting skunked all morning. Rather than see him get discouraged after a morning of fishing and not catching, we jumped in the car and drove to limestone springs to save the day. It's like cheating. It's ridiculous there. And yes I took the opportunity to explain to him that it wasn't real fishing, it was fun but that was man made, daddy paid for them to put those fish there for him to catch, and he understands 100%. But he was super proud of catching 20" rainbows all by himself, cast himself and all. All daddy did was net them. Now I have a 7 year old begging me to take him fishing again, and now determined to succeed the "right way." He is casting a fly rod in my yard. That is perhaps a future conservationist that limestone springs fishing preserve made.

A balance has to be achieved. Anglers fishing for wild brown trout and stocked trout are the reason acid rain from the Ohio Valley is declining, they are reason water quality standards were put in place, they help fund acid mine remediation projects, and many other positive factors. I'm not saying they're always right. I have grown too. But, it is the entry way. Taking kids, pre-teens, and teens miles into the woods through impossible terrain where there's no cell coverage to catch 6" specs is not going to create the next generation. At the same time, completely ignoring conservation concerns in favor of easy catching of big fish is stealing from the next generation. A balance has to be achieved.

There are a ton of 15-20 inch rainbows absolutely polluting that stretch below Limestone Springs. I have caught wild browns in there, but I have no idea how they survive. Just closing that hatchery would do wonders for the Tully.

 

[JeffP]

What is the status of Brookies in creeks like Elk and Fishing Creek?

 

[Fish Sticks]

What is the status of Brookies in creeks like Elk and Fishing Creek?

I don’t have any data o how those two brookie populations are doing but then again the commission might not either because the biologists are pretty stretched and have enormous regions. I don’t know if they have been surveyed recently. I get the sense that we don’t really know the status of brook trout in the state of pa in general. The way the commission is set up right now that’s not where the resources are being applied.

 

[Fish Sticks]

fishing creek is near and dear to my heart. Has a lot of brook trout tributaries and brookies in the main stem. Temps are excellent in the summer in the narrows. I’d like to know the answer to you questions too. Elk I know has brookies very high up but I assume you are talking about the lower spring influenced section though?

 

[JeffP]

fishing creek is near and dear to my heart. Has a lot of brook trout tributaries and brookies in the main stem. Temps are excellent in the summer in the narrows. I’d like to know the answer to you questions too. Elk I know has brookies very high up but I assume you are talking about the lower spring influenced section though

fishing creek is near and dear to my heart. Has a lot of brook trout tributaries and brookies in the main stem. Temps are excellent in the summer in the narrows. I’d like to know the answer to you question too. Elk I know has brookies very high up but I assume you are talking about the lower spring influenced section though?

I was thinking about the narrows (Elk) and below. It's been a while but it always seemed to have a lot of brookies and browns. Honestly, it's probably been 20 years. Also, doesn't Donny's crew own and stock parts now? I actually have never made it to Fishing Creek.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I was thinking about the narrows (Elk) and below. It's been a while but it always seemed to have a lot of brookies and browns. Honestly, it's probably been 20 years. Also, doesn't Donny's crew own and stock parts now? I actually have never made it to Fishing Creek.

Oh geeze I was not aware he had one of his

I was thinking about the narrows (Elk) and below. It's been a while but it always seemed to have a lot of brookies and browns. Honestly, it's probably been 20 years. Also, doesn't Donny's crew own and stock parts now? I actually have never made it to Fishing Creek.

oh geeze I wasn’t aware Donny was defiling that one with pay for play stocked invasive species as well. From a fishing stand point, I don’t care if a stocked rainbow trout is 30”. If it was placed in a small stretch of spring creek for me to find after paying a fee the challenge of catching something so inbred, unnatural, and so far from the ecosystem it evolved in such a staged/engineered situation is about as sporting as hunting deer with a predator drone.

Sadly since Pa is the wild Wild West there are very few rules on where you can’t play bucket biologist. I don’t think PAFB can stop the sale of fish because that’s the USDA. But I do think there is a list of what fish are approved for stocking by private individuals in what waterways if I am not mistaken so I believe if the will was there at the commission to protect any native brook trout in ElK creek from people like Donny beavers they could.

 

[wildtrout2]

Here's an interesting paragraph from the book "The Vanishing Trout".

The Loyalsock is typical of most of the streams of the northern Alleghenies. The brown trout have taken possession of them and the brook trout live in them at their peril. Like the lion and the lamb, where the brown trout and the brook trout lie down together, the latter is usually inside the former.

I say interesting because this was first written back in 1931.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Here's an interesting paragraph from the book "The Vanishing Trout".

The Loyalsock is typical of most of the streams of the northern Alleghenies. The brown trout have taken possession of them and the brook trout live in them at their peril. Like the lion and the lamb, where the brown trout and the brook trout lie down together, the latter is usually inside the former.

I say interesting because this was first written back in 1931.

People jet a lot more fish back then and in early fly fishing when type of flie was all the rage instead of presentation stomach sampling was standard and the hall mark of a serious angler back then. They no doubt found a lot of brookies.

 

[Fish Sticks]

People jet a lot more fish back then and in early fly fishing when type of flie was all the rage instead of presentation stomach sampling was standard and the hall mark of a serious angler back then. They no doubt found a lot of brookies.

Kept a lot more fish back then*

 

[wildtrout2]

I guess my point was that this has been an issue for a very long time. And it didn't take long to become a serious problem.
What really flips me out is, it's mentioned that natives of 18"+ were common back then.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I guess my point was that this has been an issue for a very long time. And it didn't take long to become a serious problem.
What really flips me out is, it's mentioned that natives of 18"+ were common back then.

Oh yea that’s nothing, cedar run in camp hill pa was full of 5lb native brook trout. The question of how big could they get in some of todays best environments in PA fascinates me. If they weren’t competing for the most food rich downstream waterways with non native trout in fall, winter, and spring during when their trying to replacing caloric deficit post spawn/grow in late winter/ spring, I think it would be a game changer. We can never get back to how it was with 5lb brookies but there’s such an enormous spectrum/gap inbetween that there are some real possibilities.

The fact that there is no current management for brook trout in PA in regards to stocking, invasive species, life history protection, conservation genetics or special regs makes me extremely optimistic we can get bigger fish in this state. We are at the absolute low point in management and look what we still have. Despite our best efforts at a state level from a management perspective to kill these fish off and displace them with hatchery fish,no protection against incidental harvest of large brookies, and managing in tiny sections counter to solid science, they still persist. Maryland DNR specifically said they have C and R on brook trout because this incidental harvest of large brook trout (known or unknown) in stocking areas l is a real problem in the early seasons in larger waterways.

We can only go up from here and even though we are in the dark ages of native brook trout management right now I can’t help but see the potential and be optimistic given what other states are doing and how much of a non participatory outlier we are in PA. You can only explain why your the only state doing nothing for so long when others are having success.