Stream "devoid" of fish

[ryanh]

Had a very interesting experience that made me rethink everything that I thought I knew. Spent the week in the Smokies on a kid trip (regrettably no fishing) and took the kids to metcalf bttoms to play in the stream. There were people everywhere skipping rock and doing normal touristy stuff. I have caught fish in this very spot but there was not a trout to be seen on this day. I made my kids pick a boulder to sit on and have some quit time when my son called me over. The rock he's was on was next to another one ander there was a perfect 6 inch hole between the two and you could see trout (more than one ) appear and quickly disappear. They were in there but completely hidden. Blew my mind and made me wonder how many miles of seemingly dead water I have gone through when the trout were just hidden awaiting the proper conditions.

 

[poopdeck]

Things we will never know are maddening. I often find myself saying, how come I've never fished there before.

Do not regret not fishing on a family vacation. When your old and the kids are out on their own you will regret not spending as much time as is humanly possible doing the things they like to do while you can. Someone here said it best, the days are long but the years are short.

 

[wgmiller]

It's been said many times on this board that a fishing rod is a poor tool to determine the biomass of a stream. I think we've all had times where we've sworn up and down that there "just aren't any fish in this stream", when in reality there are.

 

[FarmerDave]

Those that think one has to see trout to believe they are there are missing out on a lot of opportunities. This is especially true with wild brook trout and freestone streams. They ae very good at hiding in gin clear water.

WG, I agree with the first part of your post, but it is certainly better than just trying to spot trout. But most of my trout fishing in my younger days was for natives in NWPA freestones. On more than one occasion, I had people ask if there were fish in there, with a confused look on there face. You see, I wasn't fond of fishing the stocked streams back then. I personally thought there were lots of trout in those "not approved" streams, but found out later that they were class C and D which apparently means that they don't? ;-)

 

[Mike]

It also pertains to stocked trout, FD. The real killer for me is when people ask “was ‘stream X’”stocked today? I stopped by and did not see any fish.

(My note: there was no cancellation posted, the stream was stocked, yet once again the same question arose because the “angler” could not see any fish. I”ll never get the idea of looking for stocked trout before one fishes for them).

 

[JasonC]

Stocked or wild, I'll never get the idea of spotting trout before casting to them as well. I mean, their camouflaged for a reason, right? Just wet a line and see what happens. A bad day of fishing beats any day working or stuck in the house in my opinion.

 

[ryanh]

I think there are a couple of differences that I failed to make clear. This stream is on par with Penns Creek. I have never been to one of the class A+ type streams and not seen signs of fish...sippers, trout working the seams, even scaring trout darting for cover. There was none of it. This was also at a very popular spot so I just assumed that it was pressured out and the fish moved on. Wasn't the case, they just took cover.

 

[JasonC]

ryanh, I think you hit on the head. The streams I frequent have a few spots where there is constant activity, either people or dogs in the water. Those spots also happen to be some of the best spots along the streams that could potentially hold fish and even when there is no activity and hasn't been for an extended amount of time, there still are never any fish. Maybe they learn to avoid those areas?

 

[sarce]

One of my favorite small streams actually does have a much lower biomass of brown trout in a section that sees a lot of human activity, borne out in survey results year after year. It's about 20kg/ha there compared to 50 kg/ha below and >100 kg/ha above. There is better habitat a quarter mile upstream, so they have somewhere to run to.

I've had days on this stream when I do not see any fish, then I seemingly reach the point beyond wherever the last angler fished before me, and have caught 2 or 3 large browns immediately. Other days, if no one has been there in a while, I'll observe 6-12 browns in each pool and catch them easily on dry flies.

When it comes to brook trout streams, if water temps are cold and if I am only catching the tiny ones, it's a good bet someone fished it ahead of me. Having people fish a stream or splashing around in a stream even if not fishing will send them into hiding. This leads to a lot of poor fishing reports on otherwise great streams. Someone hits a small stream at 4 pm on a Sunday, after 5 other people have been through it that weekend, and wonders why they aren't catching as many as when they hit it after work on a Wednesday evening...it's all about being first on the water or walking farther than the last guy.

 

[FarmerDave]

Mike wrote:
It also pertains to stocked trout, FD. The real killer for me is when people ask “was ‘stream X’”stocked today? I stopped by and did not see any fish.

(My note: there was no cancellation posted, the stream was stocked, yet once again the same question arose because the “angler” could not see any fish. I”ll never get the idea of looking for stocked trout before one fishes for them).

True. I agree 100 percent, and I never suggested otherwise. See first paragraph. Then I went on to say "This is especially true with wild brook trout and freestone streams" in the second sentence.

In fact, I'd say that question occurs MORE often on stocked streams. Sorry for the confusion.

I got the impression that the OP was at one of the many unstocked streams in the Smokies. With the natives, if you see them, it's often too late. I was a blue line chaser back in the day before the internet. I still have some of the old USGS maps around here someplace.

.

 

[salmonoid]

sarce wrote:
One of my favorite small streams actually does have a much lower biomass of brown trout in a section that sees a lot of human activity, borne out in survey results year after year. It's about 20kg/ha there compared to 50 kg/ha below and >100 kg/ha above. There is better habitat a quarter mile upstream, so they have somewhere to run to.

I've had days on this stream when I do not see any fish, then I seemingly reach the point beyond wherever the last angler fished before me, and have caught 2 or 3 large browns immediately. Other days, if no one has been there in a while, I'll observe 6-12 browns in each pool and catch them easily on dry flies.

When it comes to brook trout streams, if water temps are cold and if I am only catching the tiny ones, it's a good bet someone fished it ahead of me. Having people fish a stream or splashing around in a stream even if not fishing will send them into hiding. This leads to a lot of poor fishing reports on otherwise great streams. Someone hits a small stream at 4 pm on a Sunday, after 5 other people have been through it that weekend, and wonders why they aren't catching as many as when they hit it after work on a Wednesday evening...it's all about being first on the water or walking farther than the last guy.

I don't ever write off wild brown trout waters until I've fished them multiple times in ideal conditions and experienced poor outings all times. On one local popular stream, I walk to the mouth before sunrise and fish on up through. But that doesn't help with the occasional angler that decides to start upstream and fish downstream. One time, when I was there early, I saw four different sets of anglers walking down to the mouth.

I've also shifted as many of my backpacking/fishing trips to weekdays as possible. It sometimes means the fish get a break of a day or two before seeing another angler and other foot traffic is often lower during the week than the weekend and that translates into better fishing usually. I also try to avoid holiday week/weekends as well, just because that tends to draw out the anglers.

Conditions and human presence (in that order) are usually the factors that determine if I have a good catch day or not. I almost always have a good fishing day, regardless of any factors.

 

[wgmiller]

salmonoid wrote:
I've also shifted as many of my backpacking/fishing trips to weekdays as possible. It sometimes means the fish get a break of a day or two before seeing another angler and other foot traffic is often lower during the week than the weekend and that translates into better fishing usually. I also try to avoid holiday week/weekends as well, just because that tends to draw out the anglers.

In "normal" times, I'd say this is fairly accurate. However, the past year + has been far from normal, as we're all aware. I used to enjoy getting out during the week, when I'd rarely see other anglers. That has definitely changed, and I am hopeful things will eventually return to the way they were pre-pandemic! Weekdays are still better than weekends, but there is definitely more angling pressure during weekdays than there used to be!

 

[salmonoid]

wgmiller wrote:

salmonoid wrote:
I've also shifted as many of my backpacking/fishing trips to weekdays as possible. It sometimes means the fish get a break of a day or two before seeing another angler and other foot traffic is often lower during the week than the weekend and that translates into better fishing usually. I also try to avoid holiday week/weekends as well, just because that tends to draw out the anglers.

In "normal" times, I'd say this is fairly accurate. However, the past year + has been far from normal, as we're all aware. I used to enjoy getting out during the week, when I'd rarely see other anglers. That has definitely changed, and I am hopeful things will eventually return to the way they were pre-pandemic! Weekdays are still better than weekends, but there is definitely more angling pressure during weekdays than there used to be!

Agreed 100%. I'm actually seeing spot-burning debates on backpacking sites these days... Some people are reluctant to give up trail names because of the extra pressure some trails are seeing. It will die down in a year or two and there will be lots of good deals on outdoor equipment, fishing gear, bikes, kayaks, etc. I finally knocked off the Old Loggers Path last October on about a 48-hour outing. Went up Thursday to beat the weekend crowds, but still counted over 50 people in a short time period. Put in 15 miles before noon on Friday just to make sure I could stay where I wanted to and hoofed up a couple of liters of water up to a dry vista. I'm all for people getting outside, but that's a bit in conflict at times with my need for outdoors solitude. Go outside, but just not where I am outside at

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Salmanoid,

Assuming your from lancaster like your profile says:

If you flatlanders would stay south of 80 where you belong, the northcentral part of the state would return to peace and quiet! :hammer:

In all seriousness it is amazing how much hiking, and backpack traffic that area receives. Add in rock run and that area may gwt close to its population during the logging and mining days!

 

[jifigz]

I have fished up through small streams where I KNOW THAT THERE ARE FISH and have never seen them. Trout have an uncanny way to stay very hidden even on very small waters. Other times you can see them darting from one area of the creek to another, but sometimes they lay very low.

While human presence can hurt, I don't think it's that big of a deal. On the small streams I fish I think the trout are back to acting normal withing 30 minutes or less after being disturbed by a fellow human.

 

[jifigz]

salmonoid wrote:

wgmiller wrote:

salmonoid wrote:
I've also shifted as many of my backpacking/fishing trips to weekdays as possible. It sometimes means the fish get a break of a day or two before seeing another angler and other foot traffic is often lower during the week than the weekend and that translates into better fishing usually. I also try to avoid holiday week/weekends as well, just because that tends to draw out the anglers.

In "normal" times, I'd say this is fairly accurate. However, the past year + has been far from normal, as we're all aware. I used to enjoy getting out during the week, when I'd rarely see other anglers. That has definitely changed, and I am hopeful things will eventually return to the way they were pre-pandemic! Weekdays are still better than weekends, but there is definitely more angling pressure during weekdays than there used to be!

Agreed 100%. I'm actually seeing spot-burning debates on backpacking sites these days... Some people are reluctant to give up trail names because of the extra pressure some trails are seeing. It will die down in a year or two and there will be lots of good deals on outdoor equipment, fishing gear, bikes, kayaks, etc. I finally knocked off the Old Loggers Path last October on about a 48-hour outing. Went up Thursday to beat the weekend crowds, but still counted over 50 people in a short time period. Put in 15 miles before noon on Friday just to make sure I could stay where I wanted to and hoofed up a couple of liters of water up to a dry vista. I'm all for people getting outside, but that's a bit in conflict at times with my need for outdoors solitude. Go outside, but just not where I am outside at

The Old Logger's Path is a decent trail. I've done it a couple times..usually about 18 hours on the trail. It's pretty short and pretty easy. Lots of timber rattlers, too..

 

[JackM]

jifigz wrote:

While human presence can hurt, I don't think it's that big of a deal. On the small streams I fish I think the trout are back to acting normal withing 30 minutes or less after being disturbed by a fellow human.

I agree. Fish could not survive if they sulked for hours because of some disturbance.

 

[Mike]

Regarding the comment on visuals in Class A streams, in the vast majority of streams that I surveyed in 42 yrs of wild trout stream surveys, I never saw a trout until we started electrofishing. If it was a stream that I had never seen before, of which there were many, the first sight was often from a bridge and not trout were visible. In setting up typical 300-400 m sampling sites there was no effort to use any stealth when wading upstream or downstream because we would be electrofishing anyway later on. In rapidly wading during site set-up we would sometimes see trout, but not usually. In cases where you can see wild trout, the vast majority of the fish aren’t visible either because of coloration or because they are associated with cover. You might be surprised that when disturbed how many fish can hide under one stump, one sycamore tree’s roots, or under one boulder.

 

[troutbert]

For years I've heard flyfishers say that they went to a stream, but "Nothing was happening."

I wasn't quite sure what they meant by that.

But I think it means that they went there, looked off the bridge for awhile, didn't see any trout rising, then left.

They are going on an assumption that there "should" be trout rising.

 

[PennypackFlyer]

This guy and his girl asked me if they stocked Pennypack a couple of days ago. a friend told them they had..I said no - it was two weeks ago. So they left. They either felt that they wouldn't have any luck or that there were no trout in the water.

One of the things I ponder is which way do I thread the hook? From top down or up through bottom. And does it make a difference for hook ups or snags.