Stop Stocking Over Wild Trout

[jifigz]

This reminds me of when people were attributing the wild trout population in the Little Juniata River to fingerling stockings, when in fact there were wild brown trout there a long time before the fingerling stockings began.

How about it!

 

[JeffP]

How about it!

Or the ridiculous fingerling stockings on Penns.

 

[Cznymph]

I never suggested dumping a bunch of fish in the Letort. However stocking fingerlings in the lower section was a great success. You continue to mention on why fishermen do not fish it. Well I fished it quite often and used as a stream to take clients on. However having a quality experienced fishermen fish all day and not catch a single fish is not my idea of a good trout stream. I never and I will repeat it again I NEVER had problem catching fish on the Letort. That is why I could guide fishermen on it and have success on most outings. For years several groups such as CVTU and others interested keep clearing and access at bay. Also they used to cut and clear a channel in the stream yearly. We had a English river keeper come and evaluate the stream and his suggestion was to do that to eliminate bank wash from water build up. However most of us locals did not see the reasoning in it in recent years as no one was fishing there and the conservancy put a trail on the railroad side along the stream.
Stocking fingerlings is not creating a artificial fishery when the problem is spawning gravel. Where do you think the existing browns came from? Perhaps you remember all the work Charlie put into making his spawning area. He was way ahead of his times and some gravel still gets raked yearly. As far as sink holes we have them all over the county and they have nothing to do with the quarries. I have one in my yard and I am many miles away from any quarry. The folks at Bonnie Brook were always help full and the chapter was almost always able to work together.
I am not suggesting taking the stream back into a brook trout stream however if you want true native wild fish then face the facts. That is what it should be. Brown trout in it are invasive. You complain about a few rainbows left after a kids derby but enjoy the brown trout that have taken over the stream.????? I have never caught a wild Bow or wild brook in the stream so I seem no problem. Living in Boilingsprings area for 50 years and never hear of anyone call the stream section by numbers so I assume you are not local. Also Charlie and Vince have been dead for about 25 years. Ed who was a good friend of my has been gone for about 5 years. Yes they were knowledgeable but that was the past. I personally never fished the tourist water very hard in recent years as there was much better water and fish to be caught by exploring other sections of the stream. My assistments are based on facts from the PA fish com. biologists when they did there shocking and other stream evaluations, personal experiences and other locals who still give it a try. Many of these folks fish hundreds of days a year and share the same thought I am presenting. They appreciate a quality fishery but do expect to catch some fish when conditions are right. I can guarantee you the reason there is almost no fishing pressure on the stream is because of very poor catch rates and these include experienced local fishermen.

Based on my fly fishing experience in Europe, the absolute last person I want having a say in any of our trout water is an English Riverkeeper.

 

[Bamboozle]

Fingerlings were stocked in the lower Letort. And wild trout are found in the lower Letort.

This does not prove that those wild trout resulted from the fingerling stockings.

Does anyone really believe that if no fingerlings had been stocked that the lower Letort would have been without wild trout?

If the upper part of a stream has a good wild trout population, and the lower part of the stream has conditions suitable for wild trout, it will soon develop a wild trout population. Trout move around.

This reminds me of when people were attributing the wild trout population in the Little Juniata River to fingerling stockings, when in fact there were wild brown trout there a long time before the fingerling stockings began.

In 2024 three out of four sections of the Letort are Class A and if you include the "left branch" which is now called "UNT to Letort Spring Run" it is 4 sections.

Section 3 & Section 4 were added as a direct result after the closure of old sewage treatment plant in 1982. It was after that when the fingerlings were stocked. However there was also the massive fish kill in 1981 which effected the UNT and the entire stream from the mouth of the UNT @ R.M. 6.51 to the mouth. The lower end of Section 2 and all of Section 1 was not effected by that fish kill.

I don't have any evidence to back it up and don't think the Class A lists were by sections in 1981, however I believe the entire upper Letort (Section 1 & all of Section 2) were Class A at the time. I also know there were plenty of wild fish up there because I fished those areas for years until things improved everywhere else but it didn't take long.

I'm not a biologist or even a hack so it's hard to say if those fingerling stocking are the sole or even a major part of the reason the stream bounced back so quickly. However I know for a fact there were wild fish in the river in 1981 - 1985 that weren't stocked fingerlings because I was catching them right after the fish kill.

I also know that things rebounded pretty quickly after the 2019 fish kill at the bottom end of Section 3 WITHOUT any fingerling or other supplemental stockings so the resident wild trout in the Letort are pretty resilient, at least in my lifetime.

 

[HopBack]

I never suggested dumping a bunch of fish in the Letort. However stocking fingerlings in the lower section was a great success. You continue to mention on why fishermen do not fish it. Well I fished it quite often and used as a stream to take clients on. However having a quality experienced fishermen fish all day and not catch a single fish is not my idea of a good trout stream. I never and I will repeat it again I NEVER had problem catching fish on the Letort. That is why I could guide fishermen on it and have success on most outings. For years several groups such as CVTU and others interested keep clearing and access at bay. Also they used to cut and clear a channel in the stream yearly. We had a English river keeper come and evaluate the stream and his suggestion was to do that to eliminate bank wash from water build up. However most of us locals did not see the reasoning in it in recent years as no one was fishing there and the conservancy put a trail on the railroad side along the stream.
Stocking fingerlings is not creating a artificial fishery when the problem is spawning gravel. Where do you think the existing browns came from? Perhaps you remember all the work Charlie put into making his spawning area. He was way ahead of his times and some gravel still gets raked yearly. As far as sink holes we have them all over the county and they have nothing to do with the quarries. I have one in my yard and I am many miles away from any quarry. The folks at Bonnie Brook were always help full and the chapter was almost always able to work together.
I am not suggesting taking the stream back into a brook trout stream however if you want true native wild fish then face the facts. That is what it should be. Brown trout in it are invasive. You complain about a few rainbows left after a kids derby but enjoy the brown trout that have taken over the stream.????? I have never caught a wild Bow or wild brook in the stream so I seem no problem. Living in Boilingsprings area for 50 years and never hear of anyone call the stream section by numbers so I assume you are not local. Also Charlie and Vince have been dead for about 25 years. Ed who was a good friend of my has been gone for about 5 years. Yes they were knowledgeable but that was the past. I personally never fished the tourist water very hard in recent years as there was much better water and fish to be caught by exploring other sections of the stream. My assistments are based on facts from the PA fish com. biologists when they did there shocking and other stream evaluations, personal experiences and other locals who still give it a try. Many of these folks fish hundreds of days a year and share the same thought I am presenting. They appreciate a quality fishery but do expect to catch some fish when conditions are right. I can guarantee you the reason there is almost no fishing pressure on the stream is because of very poor catch rates and these include experienced local fishermen.

If you have to do all of that then it is an artificial fishery. Having brown trout in there already makes it artificial. If nature can’t do it on its own and we have to intervene, it’s artificial. Stream improvements can help an existing population thrive but if they wouldn’t exist at all if not put in place then it is artificial.

For what’s it’s worth, I love brown trout and especially the lower letort. I don’t catch many because I’m a poor angler but I sure see a ton!

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Yes the YBAC does stock for the Summer fair kids derby at the park. However neither the club or anyone else stocks Brookies as the club has not had any brook trout fingerlings for many years. Also the stocking is mainly rainbows so the kids catch them out rather quick. Whatever is left usually gets taken the next day or two from locals wanting a fish dinner. I would hardly call this a true trout stocking. However I assume a few rainbows may survive the slaughter from the derby. Also the fishing on the Letort has taken a severe dive in the last 10 - 15 years. I used to take clients there and we almost always caught a fish or two. Personally my catch rate has dropped to almost nothing in recent years. However I prefer to fish the lower section of the stream that you refer to as section 3. IMO it is time for the PA fish and boat to re stock fingerling browns in the lower section. Years ago we could catch several 12 inch fish during the sulfur hatch and a occasional 20 plus incher. Those days are gone. You are lucky to catch a fish during that time period for the last 5 plus years. I am a local resident and have observed the stream for years and see no need to have a great stream that is almost void of fish. The main problem is the lack of spawning gravel according to locals and biologist .We need some proper fish management and fingerlings is currently the way to go.

I've been fishing the LeTort since about 1985. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I fished it extensively from 1995-2010. I can tell you that there was limited natural reproduction of rainbows in two different sections of the stream at different points in time. While they may have been the progeny of the kid's derby stocking, they were wild (5"-6" w/parr marks). I can also honestly tell you that when the PFBC fingerlings were stocked, they were more of a nuisance for me. Sure, I caught more fish but at the expense of putting larger fish down. From my experience, the stream has gotten shallower...I remember well, some holes that were 6'+ deep that are all but silted in. Most fishing is subsurface now as mayflies have diminished and because people do not like fishing the bottom, their catch rates are down. Because the stream is shallower, more fish are under the cress and the undercuts where they are unavailable most of the day. And then there is harvest. The bigger fish do get cropped off so now they aren't in such great supply as yesteryear. I can't tell you how many times I saw people drag big browns into Olde Fishing Station (when open) or people that entered fish in the Harrisburg Patriot Big Fish Contest. I also personally knew people who plundered it with bait (perfectly legal). Best bet would be to rake the silt ($$$), increase instream structure ($$$), and let nature take its course by seeding it from current stock already in the stream. No fingerlings...and as for more regulations (if you're suggesting)...we can't even enforce all the regulations we already have on the books. More regulations usually equals more fishing pressure.

 

[jifigz]

I've never fished the Letort..I probably should..

 

[Bamboozle]

I've never fished the Letort..I probably should..

Haven't you read the previous posts, there no fish in the Letort any longer... 😉

However, there is a one day kid's fishing derby the first weekend in July. If you can't fool anyone into thinking you are under 12 years old, fish the following day. 😎

 

[Mikey2006]

What section would the water right above the mouth above the falls be considered, or do the sections everyone is talking about refer to water within the fly only area? I’ve only been on the LeTort twice so I’m trying to at least picture where everything that is being talking about actually is

 

[Bamboozle]

What section would the water right above the mouth above the falls be considered, or do the sections everyone is talking about refer to water within the fly only area? I’ve only been on the LeTort twice so I’m trying to at least picture where everything that is being talking about actually is

Section 4, it extends from Post Road to the mouth.

FWIW - Stream section numbers are a PFBC thing for area identification purposes. They are found on stocking lists, Class A Lists & other places.

To me it makes more sense to refer to section numbers because it is a reference that is defined, consistent (for the most part), doesn't require local or previous knowledge of locations on a stream and something that can be more easily researched versus:

"The water right above the mouth above the falls... 😉

 

[jifigz]

What section would the water right above the mouth above the falls be considered, or do the sections everyone is talking about refer to water within the fly only area? I’ve only been on the LeTort twice so I’m trying to at least picture where everything that is being talking about actually is

And just for further clarification, the closer to the headwaters you go, the lower the number, and the closer to the mouth you go, the higher the number.

 

[Old Town]

To answere your question fingerlings need stocked do to very little natural reproduction. One reason was the lack of clean gravel and I am sure there are some others that have been discussed but the gravel was the one we decided to work on.
The upper tourist area does not have anywhere near the numbers of fish that it did years ago. I am not suggesting stocking it do to fishermen feedback and there is a better population of fish currently.
Bottom line is we had a viable fishery on the section from town to where it flows into the Con. and we have a non viable fishery currently. What good is a fishery with out fish? These are the same fish that were stocked in the stream that you call wild fish!
I have done physical work as well as documentation on the stream and I believe my thoughts are accepted by most fishermen that understand the stream. Back to the original post the YBAC summer fair kids derby stocking , It does not do any harm to the stream in any wat that has been observed. This is a plus for the local community and helps keep the kids off the streets so to speak. There is no evidence of negative impact unless you can show us one.
Stocking trout over wild trout does not guarantee negative effects on wild fish. Another local steam is stocked and shows no negative impact on the wild brown trout population. Also where would Greensprings be with out stocked trout? Definitely not a trout stream. One reason is the lack of gravel.
Unfortunately it appears some have total lack of knowledge why streams are stock and why not. I agree to not stock in wild brook trout streams but wild browns are totally different animal.