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Cznymph
Active member
They get my hopes up every few years when they talk about closing it, but they never do.
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steliejim
Member
- Joined
- May 28, 2010
- Messages
- 255
The Schuylkill County chapter was big into stocking the Little Schuylkill and I think they heard about it, either from the national level or the state level. They have since gone under the guise of Schuylkill Headwaters to achieve their stockings. I would really prefer that stream not being stocked at all.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Section 3 is from the lower Reading RR trestle just above Letort Park to Post Road.
The upper part of this section is stocked by Yellow Breeches Anglers for a kids fishing derby in Letort Park held in July every year.
In addition to the travesty of stocking a Class A section of Letort Spring Run, they are dumping brook trout, rainbow trout, golden rainbow trout and who know what else into the Letort...
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bringthepain
Active member
I thought that stream had a decent population of wild fish (never fished it)
To me it makes no sense that its always locals stocking these streams. You'd think the locals would want to protest the local wild fish
Andrwhite610
Active member
Second that. In my favorite section they are stocking right over natives.
J
JeffP
Well-known member
I didn't think the Little Schuylkill had many wild fish. Are we talking about brookies or browns? Upstream sections?
Andrwhite610
Active member
Both and yes..
mgmunson
Active member
Back creek, blue hole creek, fall creek, allen creek, jones mills run, kooser run, shafer run, linn run. all in the Laurel Highlands.
I'd list more but understand the need/demand for stocked fish and I don't want to be branded a zealot
I'd list more but understand the need/demand for stocked fish and I don't want to be branded a zealot
T
troutbert
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 10,766
From the article:
** Send the Pennsylvania Fish Commission a simple email of support for eliminating stocking on wild trout waters. **
ADDRESS
RA-pfbcregulations@pa.gov
** Send the Pennsylvania Fish Commission a simple email of support for eliminating stocking on wild trout waters. **
ADDRESS
RA-pfbcregulations@pa.gov
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bringthepain
Active member
Done, first time i have ever emailed the PFBC about anything!!
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Old Town
Member
Yes the YBAC does stock for the Summer fair kids derby at the park. However neither the club or anyone else stocks Brookies as the club has not had any brook trout fingerlings for many years. Also the stocking is mainly rainbows so the kids catch them out rather quick. Whatever is left usually gets taken the next day or two from locals wanting a fish dinner. I would hardly call this a true trout stocking. However I assume a few rainbows may survive the slaughter from the derby. Also the fishing on the Letort has taken a severe dive in the last 10 - 15 years. I used to take clients there and we almost always caught a fish or two. Personally my catch rate has dropped to almost nothing in recent years. However I prefer to fish the lower section of the stream that you refer to as section 3. IMO it is time for the PA fish and boat to re stock fingerling browns in the lower section. Years ago we could catch several 12 inch fish during the sulfur hatch and a occasional 20 plus incher. Those days are gone. You are lucky to catch a fish during that time period for the last 5 plus years. I am a local resident and have observed the stream for years and see no need to have a great stream that is almost void of fish. The main problem is the lack of spawning gravel according to locals and biologist .We need some proper fish management and fingerlings is currently the way to go.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Speaking as someone NOT from the area but who has fished the stream since the 1970's, the reasons for the decline are many including development that didn't exist until recently, a decrease in silt capturing vegetation which caused the stream to overflow its banks permanently, the quarry AND a lack of recent stewardship from any groups or individuals, save for the work in the headwaters by the Central Pennsylvania Conservancy.
I still remember my first visit when there were stepping stones in the creek to navigate silty places or cross the millrace & mucky meadows. There were several benches to take breaks and even the green muslin screens that Vince Marinaro put up to hide behind to observe trout were still in place.
I also remember when Charlie Fox told me about sewage treatment plant closing which made Section 4 below Post Road Class A and a decent fishery. The fishing was always tough, but at least in those days you could move around and get into a position to make a cast.
Since the early 2000's when the Quarry meadow was besieged with sinkholes and the water level changed turning "Vince's Meadow" into a muddy morass, it seems like nobody cares about the stream any longer. I used to fish a lot at the end of Foxcroft Drive back in the 1980's but when I went to take a look in August of last year, you could barely see the stream however I did see a few fish...
Hopefully they weren't stockers from the kid's fishing derby...
However despite all of this and quoting Vince Marinaro, "The Letort is a taskmaster" and was never an easy stream to catch fish. However, just like after the fish kill in the 1980's, I'd rather take care of the watershed and let the fish take care of themselves.
Obviously we have a difference of opinion but I hope the PFBC or anyone else for that matter never advances a quick fix, artificial fishery with stocked fish of any size just because the Letort has got tougher.
The stream, and the earliest strains of wild brown trout that inhabit the Letort deserve a lot better...
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phiendWMD
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2013
- Messages
- 803
FWIW, me too. They were very nice people, but they dump buckets of stocked fish over wild fish. I don't want to participate in that.
GANGGREEN
Active member
- Joined
- May 26, 2016
- Messages
- 153
I'd like to see practically every stream in northcentral PA and certainly in Potter County taken off the list. They wouldn't all have Brookies immediately, but they ALL would have wild trout and eventually the Brookies would begin to reclaim their former strongholds I would think.
HopBack
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2013
- Messages
- 1,020
Perspective is everything. There is zero interest from the locals in protecting wild fish. What they want is loads of fish, preferably trophy sized fish, that are easy to catch. A wild trout fishery simply does not provide this experience for them. Itās not relatable to them and youāre likely not going to change the mindset of the entire county. Heck most of PA regards trout fishing in this manner. Wild trout enthusiasts/conservationist are the minority in this situation not the majority.
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Old Town
Member
The sewer plant did not shut down but was upgraded to meet higher standards. That is when the fingerlings stocking began in the lower section. Water from the quarry is pumped back into the stream so I can not see where stream flow dropped do to the quarry. However we had a sink hole near the quarry area that we used to sand bag and used bentonite to temporary seal years ago. Then we managed to get one of our local construction companies to open the throat and do a permanent seal on the sink hole. I too have fished it since the mid 70s and have seen major declines in the fishery. There has been some home development but not by any standards to make major changes in the water quality. Most folks understand stream can go through spells of ups and downs but it has been too long to recover to its past glory IMO. Wild fish are great but when they all but disappear we need to be responsible stewards and do the best thing for the fishery. Basically no one fishes the Letort , at least like if was 25,30 plus years ago. Yet it still has excellent potencial as a fingerling stock fishery. Last if we want to have a wild fishery then we need to remove all the browns and stock wild brook trout. If you want wild fish then that is what is needed and the invasive browns should be eradicated.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
In the Nazareth & Tatamy areas near where I live, we have a lot a problems with sinkholes and almost all of them have something to do with quarries... I can't remember the last time I fished above the Quarry Meadow and saw water gushing out of the outflow from the Union Quarry like I did in the past.
But the reason nobody fishes the Letort isn't because (they think) the fish are gone, it's because fishing the Letort, especially the most famous and the area that attracted the most anglers, Section 2, the former Limestone Springs Wild Trout/Fly Fishing Only Section is a miserable mess to fish with a fly rod.
It's exactly like the situation at Section 4, the Fly Fishing Only section of Clark's Creek where it is almost impossible to fish with a fly rod and as a result angler usage is way down.
Fishing Section 2 of the Letort was always a challenge, but you used to be able to move relatively easily from Fox's Meadow upstream. A bunch of folks including me used to park at the end of Foxcrest Drive or at a pull-off on Spring Garden Street just south of I-81 and fish all they way up and through Trego's.
Try that today...
From "Vince's Meadow" upstream there is barely a bank to stand on and where there is a bank, it's under inches of water so moving puts every fish down for yards upstream. Just above there you have to walk through the millrace because the bank disappeared.
There were a FEW places where you could safely cross the stream below "Otto's" if you knew the spots. I know and used those spots often but I wouldn't dare try and cross there today. At "Otto's," unless things have changed the fence is right next to the stream which make those casts from your knees under the trestle about impossible...
Years ago, some folks had a lousy experience at the Letort because it wasn't a stream you could fish like any other save for Big Springs, Green Springs and a few others plus the fish were wary so the fishing was tough and they couldn't adapt.
Now it sucks for everyone because you can barely fish it at all. THAT'S the problem that should be addressed, not turning it into another Green Springs by dumping in a bunch of stockers because somebody wants to catch a bunch of fish and probably brag they caught them on the Letort...
Even IF this approach was taken, it wouldn't solve the problem of low angler usage unless they also dumped the fly fishing only regs at the same time and opened it up to harvest with all tackle 'cause those folks could just sit on chair in the few open spots and fish to their heart's content...
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against non-fly anglers or even responsible harvest and I advocate changing the regs on Section 4 of Clark's becuse of the problem there, but NOT on the Letort.
Being a good steward of the resource ISN'T creating an artificial fishery where it's not needed.
Brookies, they had their day on the Letort but that was a LONG, LONG, LONG time ago and the likelihood they could be repatriated is a pipe dream. Besides, the draw of the Letort for the last 100+ years has been the challenge and a chance to catch a really large fish which just happen to be those horrid invasive brown trout...
I also doubt turning it into a really, really hard place to catch one or two 4" brookies would suddenly increase angler usage...
The bottom line for me is I ALWAYS caught fish on the Letort once I figured what it took to be successful. That meant a dose of patience like I never needed any place else, slowing down everything to a crawl; literally, a bit of stealth, almost perfect presentation and the right fly.
I thoroughly enjoyed the game and had many days when I caught more fish in a day than some folks catch in a lifetime. Most importantly, the fishing was fun because SO much of the stream was fishable. However, the only reason I know it would be difficult to achieve the same level of sucess today ISN'T because the stream needs to be stocked...
It's because so many of the spots which equate to opportunities are about inaccessible.
I hope I live long enough to see the Section 3 of the Letort AND Section 4 of Clarks cleaned up...
But I hope I never live to see the day when the Letort is added to the PFBC or anyone else's stocking list...
But the reason nobody fishes the Letort isn't because (they think) the fish are gone, it's because fishing the Letort, especially the most famous and the area that attracted the most anglers, Section 2, the former Limestone Springs Wild Trout/Fly Fishing Only Section is a miserable mess to fish with a fly rod.
It's exactly like the situation at Section 4, the Fly Fishing Only section of Clark's Creek where it is almost impossible to fish with a fly rod and as a result angler usage is way down.
Fishing Section 2 of the Letort was always a challenge, but you used to be able to move relatively easily from Fox's Meadow upstream. A bunch of folks including me used to park at the end of Foxcrest Drive or at a pull-off on Spring Garden Street just south of I-81 and fish all they way up and through Trego's.
Try that today...
From "Vince's Meadow" upstream there is barely a bank to stand on and where there is a bank, it's under inches of water so moving puts every fish down for yards upstream. Just above there you have to walk through the millrace because the bank disappeared.
There were a FEW places where you could safely cross the stream below "Otto's" if you knew the spots. I know and used those spots often but I wouldn't dare try and cross there today. At "Otto's," unless things have changed the fence is right next to the stream which make those casts from your knees under the trestle about impossible...
Years ago, some folks had a lousy experience at the Letort because it wasn't a stream you could fish like any other save for Big Springs, Green Springs and a few others plus the fish were wary so the fishing was tough and they couldn't adapt.
Now it sucks for everyone because you can barely fish it at all. THAT'S the problem that should be addressed, not turning it into another Green Springs by dumping in a bunch of stockers because somebody wants to catch a bunch of fish and probably brag they caught them on the Letort...
Even IF this approach was taken, it wouldn't solve the problem of low angler usage unless they also dumped the fly fishing only regs at the same time and opened it up to harvest with all tackle 'cause those folks could just sit on chair in the few open spots and fish to their heart's content...
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against non-fly anglers or even responsible harvest and I advocate changing the regs on Section 4 of Clark's becuse of the problem there, but NOT on the Letort.
Being a good steward of the resource ISN'T creating an artificial fishery where it's not needed.
Brookies, they had their day on the Letort but that was a LONG, LONG, LONG time ago and the likelihood they could be repatriated is a pipe dream. Besides, the draw of the Letort for the last 100+ years has been the challenge and a chance to catch a really large fish which just happen to be those horrid invasive brown trout...
I also doubt turning it into a really, really hard place to catch one or two 4" brookies would suddenly increase angler usage...
The bottom line for me is I ALWAYS caught fish on the Letort once I figured what it took to be successful. That meant a dose of patience like I never needed any place else, slowing down everything to a crawl; literally, a bit of stealth, almost perfect presentation and the right fly.
I thoroughly enjoyed the game and had many days when I caught more fish in a day than some folks catch in a lifetime. Most importantly, the fishing was fun because SO much of the stream was fishable. However, the only reason I know it would be difficult to achieve the same level of sucess today ISN'T because the stream needs to be stocked...
It's because so many of the spots which equate to opportunities are about inaccessible.
I hope I live long enough to see the Section 3 of the Letort AND Section 4 of Clarks cleaned up...
But I hope I never live to see the day when the Letort is added to the PFBC or anyone else's stocking list...
O
Old Town
Member
I never suggested dumping a bunch of fish in the Letort. However stocking fingerlings in the lower section was a great success. You continue to mention on why fishermen do not fish it. Well I fished it quite often and used as a stream to take clients on. However having a quality experienced fishermen fish all day and not catch a single fish is not my idea of a good trout stream. I never and I will repeat it again I NEVER had problem catching fish on the Letort. That is why I could guide fishermen on it and have success on most outings. For years several groups such as CVTU and others interested keep clearing and access at bay. Also they used to cut and clear a channel in the stream yearly. We had a English river keeper come and evaluate the stream and his suggestion was to do that to eliminate bank wash from water build up. However most of us locals did not see the reasoning in it in recent years as no one was fishing there and the conservancy put a trail on the railroad side along the stream.
Stocking fingerlings is not creating a artificial fishery when the problem is spawning gravel. Where do you think the existing browns came from? Perhaps you remember all the work Charlie put into making his spawning area. He was way ahead of his times and some gravel still gets raked yearly. As far as sink holes we have them all over the county and they have nothing to do with the quarries. I have one in my yard and I am many miles away from any quarry. The folks at Bonnie Brook were always help full and the chapter was almost always able to work together.
I am not suggesting taking the stream back into a brook trout stream however if you want true native wild fish then face the facts. That is what it should be. Brown trout in it are invasive. You complain about a few rainbows left after a kids derby but enjoy the brown trout that have taken over the stream.????? I have never caught a wild Bow or wild brook in the stream so I seem no problem. Living in Boilingsprings area for 50 years and never hear of anyone call the stream section by numbers so I assume you are not local. Also Charlie and Vince have been dead for about 25 years. Ed who was a good friend of my has been gone for about 5 years. Yes they were knowledgeable but that was the past. I personally never fished the tourist water very hard in recent years as there was much better water and fish to be caught by exploring other sections of the stream. My assistments are based on facts from the PA fish com. biologists when they did there shocking and other stream evaluations, personal experiences and other locals who still give it a try. Many of these folks fish hundreds of days a year and share the same thought I am presenting. They appreciate a quality fishery but do expect to catch some fish when conditions are right. I can guarantee you the reason there is almost no fishing pressure on the stream is because of very poor catch rates and these include experienced local fishermen.
Stocking fingerlings is not creating a artificial fishery when the problem is spawning gravel. Where do you think the existing browns came from? Perhaps you remember all the work Charlie put into making his spawning area. He was way ahead of his times and some gravel still gets raked yearly. As far as sink holes we have them all over the county and they have nothing to do with the quarries. I have one in my yard and I am many miles away from any quarry. The folks at Bonnie Brook were always help full and the chapter was almost always able to work together.
I am not suggesting taking the stream back into a brook trout stream however if you want true native wild fish then face the facts. That is what it should be. Brown trout in it are invasive. You complain about a few rainbows left after a kids derby but enjoy the brown trout that have taken over the stream.????? I have never caught a wild Bow or wild brook in the stream so I seem no problem. Living in Boilingsprings area for 50 years and never hear of anyone call the stream section by numbers so I assume you are not local. Also Charlie and Vince have been dead for about 25 years. Ed who was a good friend of my has been gone for about 5 years. Yes they were knowledgeable but that was the past. I personally never fished the tourist water very hard in recent years as there was much better water and fish to be caught by exploring other sections of the stream. My assistments are based on facts from the PA fish com. biologists when they did there shocking and other stream evaluations, personal experiences and other locals who still give it a try. Many of these folks fish hundreds of days a year and share the same thought I am presenting. They appreciate a quality fishery but do expect to catch some fish when conditions are right. I can guarantee you the reason there is almost no fishing pressure on the stream is because of very poor catch rates and these include experienced local fishermen.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Were the fingerling stockings a "success" because you & your clients caught fish or because they took hold and established a viable reproducing population, where there previously was none?
If it is the latter, why are more stockings necessary? Shouldn't that have been the desire after Section 3 rebounded when the old sewage treatment plant was replaced? The fact the stockings ended sort of implies that it was done to establish a reproducing population and the fact that Section 3 & 4 were added to the Class A list affirms that assumption.
The lower Letort in Section 3, especially downstream of Shady Lane after the fingerling stocking was a "success" because the gravel was also cleaned up, a Trico hatch started and became a regular thing AND the fishing was way easier than in Section 2.
I for one loved when that happened because it took some of the pressure off the "tourist section." BTW - I already stated I'm not from the area however I use section numbers when I describe trout streams because not everyone is familiar with the local names for the areas of the streams.
If lack of spawning gravel is the problem, what good will it do to stock fingerlings if THEY can't spawn. Isn't that creating an artificial fishery??
Wouldn't cleaning the gravel beds make more sense...??
FWIW - Sinkholes are caused by undermining & subsidence often caused by erosion due to fluctuating water tables. Many things affect water tables and quarries are one of them. If you don't want to blame Union Quarries for any of the issues that's fine, but many others do.
You are familiar with the report below??
I still remember after the pesticide kill fishing nothing but Trego's for years and while the fishing was very good, it was tough because the meadow was very overgrown, loaded with mosquitos and the stream flow is right to left so for right-handed caster it was all backhanded cast. However, despite abundant fish, I never saw a sole when I was there.
I don't know for sure but I assume it was because Trego's was a much more difficult place to fish versus the part effected by the fish kill and there was a lot less water available for multiple anglers. That's why I feel the way I do about improving the access problems versus stocking just to satisfy someone desired catch rate.
In regards to CVTU & others giving up on cleaning up because no one fishes the Letort, that presumes everybody who fished there previously had massive success and I can tell you from observation and interviews that MOST people I've watched or spoke to, didn't.
Maybe IF they didn't give up, anglers wouldn't have either...
If it is the latter, why are more stockings necessary? Shouldn't that have been the desire after Section 3 rebounded when the old sewage treatment plant was replaced? The fact the stockings ended sort of implies that it was done to establish a reproducing population and the fact that Section 3 & 4 were added to the Class A list affirms that assumption.
The lower Letort in Section 3, especially downstream of Shady Lane after the fingerling stocking was a "success" because the gravel was also cleaned up, a Trico hatch started and became a regular thing AND the fishing was way easier than in Section 2.
I for one loved when that happened because it took some of the pressure off the "tourist section." BTW - I already stated I'm not from the area however I use section numbers when I describe trout streams because not everyone is familiar with the local names for the areas of the streams.
If lack of spawning gravel is the problem, what good will it do to stock fingerlings if THEY can't spawn. Isn't that creating an artificial fishery??
Wouldn't cleaning the gravel beds make more sense...??
FWIW - Sinkholes are caused by undermining & subsidence often caused by erosion due to fluctuating water tables. Many things affect water tables and quarries are one of them. If you don't want to blame Union Quarries for any of the issues that's fine, but many others do.
You are familiar with the report below??
I still remember after the pesticide kill fishing nothing but Trego's for years and while the fishing was very good, it was tough because the meadow was very overgrown, loaded with mosquitos and the stream flow is right to left so for right-handed caster it was all backhanded cast. However, despite abundant fish, I never saw a sole when I was there.
I don't know for sure but I assume it was because Trego's was a much more difficult place to fish versus the part effected by the fish kill and there was a lot less water available for multiple anglers. That's why I feel the way I do about improving the access problems versus stocking just to satisfy someone desired catch rate.
In regards to CVTU & others giving up on cleaning up because no one fishes the Letort, that presumes everybody who fished there previously had massive success and I can tell you from observation and interviews that MOST people I've watched or spoke to, didn't.
Maybe IF they didn't give up, anglers wouldn't have either...
T
troutbert
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 10,766
Fingerlings were stocked in the lower Letort. And wild trout are found in the lower Letort.
This does not prove that those wild trout resulted from the fingerling stockings.
Does anyone really believe that if no fingerlings had been stocked that the lower Letort would have been without wild trout?
If the upper part of a stream has a good wild trout population, and the lower part of the stream has conditions suitable for wild trout, it will soon develop a wild trout population. Trout move around.
This reminds me of when people were attributing the wild trout population in the Little Juniata River to fingerling stockings, when in fact there were wild brown trout there a long time before the fingerling stockings began.
This does not prove that those wild trout resulted from the fingerling stockings.
Does anyone really believe that if no fingerlings had been stocked that the lower Letort would have been without wild trout?
If the upper part of a stream has a good wild trout population, and the lower part of the stream has conditions suitable for wild trout, it will soon develop a wild trout population. Trout move around.
This reminds me of when people were attributing the wild trout population in the Little Juniata River to fingerling stockings, when in fact there were wild brown trout there a long time before the fingerling stockings began.
