Stocked trout waters: one of the new Summary Booklet language changes

[Bamboozle]

Yes, this is what confused me as well. I will use the Upper Tulpehocken Creek in Lebanon County as an example. If you click the upper and lower stocking limits on the PFBC page it gives the marked orange range. Clearly the headwaters are much further upstream and the mouth is much further downstream. Fish above or below the stocked section and you're G2G. I typically just stay away from STW until after opening day, just to avoid the aggravation.

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Keep in mind maps, stocking lists and other location aids are NOT the legal definitions for determining Stocked Trout Waters limits, it is the list of Stocked Trout Waters in the Summary which is a summary of the PA Code fishing regulations.

 

[afishinado]

It sounds to me like the "headwaters to mouth" language was carried over from previous editions and should have been deleted but wasn't.

From my post above:

Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term troutstocked waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth.

If "Troutbert Creek" is listed in the Region Regulated Trout Waters Section as stocked trout waters, the entire creek (from headwaters to mouth) is off limits to C&R fishing in the closed season.

If "Troutbert Creek" downstream of the Anytown bridge to mouth is listed .....just fish upstream of the bridge!!!

I believe the PFBC made an attempt to clarify where C&R trout fishing can be done during the closed season. Do your homework, ask the PFBC if your not sure, grab your rod, waders and a box of flies....and go fish!!

 

[flyguyfishing]

ArcGIS Web Application

pfbc.maps.arcgis.com

One would think the PFBC map would be updated. Click the check box for “Stocked Trout Streams.” Don’t fish any of these sections during closed period.

 

[Bamboozle]

The maps get updated, but in my experience not always accurately and timely.

It's just like the coordinate links on the stocking page. I haven't run into it recently, but in the past there were a few errors that too awhile to get fixed. At least in my case, I always give them a heads up when I find errors, but since the pandemic response is slow.

 

[wgmiller]

Keep in mind maps, stocking lists and other location aids are NOT the legal definitions for determining Stocked Trout Waters limits, it is the list of Stocked Trout Waters in the Summary which is a summary of the PA Code fishing regulations.

Reason #931 to just avoid ATW/stocked stream until AFTER opening day!

 

[Bamboozle]

Reason #931 to just avoid ATW/stocked stream until AFTER opening day!

First off, an entire stream is no longer considered an "ATW/stocked stream," it only the SECTIONS defined as being stocked that are closed to fishing.

Second, it's really never been easier to not have to worry about it:

• Look in the 2022 Summary at the Stocked Trout Waters in the county where you want to fish.
• Find the name of the creek you want to fish and NOTE what areas are listed as being stocked.
• Fish anywhere on that stream in that county OTHER than the section(s) listed in the Summary. *
• OR, if you DON'T see the name of the stream on the Stocked Trout Waters List, go fishing. *

DONE!!

* If you are paranoid that the NON-stocked section(s) of the creek you want to fish or that an unnamed stream was added to the 2022 Summary List of Stocked Trout Waters AFTER publication, call the Regional Law Enforcement Office for that area and ask to make sure.

People are really making this 1000 times harder than it really is...

 

[wgmiller]

First off, an entire stream is no longer considered an "ATW/stocked stream," it only the SECTIONS defined as being stocked that are closed to fishing.

Didn't I do that with my example of the Upper Tulpehocken Creek?

 

[Bamboozle]

Didn't I do that with my example of the Upper Tulpehocken Creek?

My only point regarding your example was your reference points came from the stocking list.

Despite being the same as what is listed in the 2022 Summary, those coordinates are not the LEGAL definitions of the boundaries and they MAY not be the same for all streams when you compare them to the boundaries defined in the Summary. (I've seen it in the past).

From the Summary:

• LEBANON COUNTY
  Tulpehocken Creek (Creamery Street bridge to 100 meters downstream from unnamed tributary downstream of T-618 bridge) (Section 2)

• BERKS COUNTY
  Tulpehocken Creek (450 meters upstream Richland Road to Charming Forge Road bridge) (Section 4)

* Sections 6,7 & 8 are all in Berks and Special Regulations while 5 is the historic creek channel through Blue Marsh Lake.

With the exception of the Summary referring to Flanagan Road as T-618 (which I THINK is part of the legal definition), in regards to the Tully the limits on the Stocking List and the 2022 Summary are the same however; this isn’t always the case because the maps & coordinates aren’t always updated correctly or in a timely fashion to reflect changes made in the Summary, again that was my point.

Your earlier confusion regarding the “headwaters to mouth” verbiage in regards to the Tulpelhocken is a moot point because the Stocked Trout Waters boundaries ARE defined in both Lebanon & Berks Counties.

The entire stream being closed would ONLY apply if the Tulpelhocken was listed by NAME ONLY in the 2022 Summary under Lebanon & Berks Counties, which it ISN’T, nor is any other stream in the entire state.

Therefore, if you can legally access you can legally fish (without harvest) Section 1 & 3 of the Tulpelhocken in Lebanon County and obviously Sections 6, 7 & 8 in Berks because they are Special Regulation.

IMHO it was a poor choice of language to put “headwaters to mouth” in the Summary just in case an ENTIRE new stream was added after that fact (which will never happen the way they list Stocked Trout Waters now)...but they put it in there anyway.

Bottom line, it’s perfectly clear (at least to me) and there really is NO reason to avoid fishing the entire Tulpehocken Creek or any other stream that happens to be stocked in defined areas this time of year.

 

[Trout_Man_Dan]

Just got off the phone with South Central PA Fish and Boat Law Enforcement Office and as per usual there are conflicting pieces of information within the booklet due to the dates the booklet needed to be printed and the dates that the new regulation in question was adopted.

I was told that it would be advisable not to fish "unlisted" sections that are in between stocked sections of water. And that your special sections of Class A etc etc etc that have always been open during this time remain open, but that if the stream is being stocked this year then from the stocking date of February 21st until opening day it is not to be fished regardless if a stream section is not stocked.

The "headwaters to mouth" will apply to waters trout stocked waters in the future and will be clarified in the book next season. As stated above, when in doubt call your local office and ask which I've done. Have a great weekend and good luck to anyone getting out there.

 

[Bamboozle]

That information, which is totally contrary to what it says in the Summary, defeats the whole purpose of listing the stocking limits and smacks of uninformed WCO's, which is NOT something I haven't experienced before.

If I was inclined to go out and fish non-stocked sections of Stocked Trout Waters this time of year, I'd call the Bureau of Law Enforcement in Harrisburg (717-705-7861) and ask for clarification and see if you can get it IN WRITING.

IF they tell you this WCO was correct, ask them for ME why they bothered going through time and expense of clarifying where you could & couldn't fish this time of year when they planned on F'ing it up a year later.

 

[Bamboozle]

Just got off the phone with South Central PA Fish and Boat Law Enforcement Office and as per usual there are conflicting pieces of information within the booklet due to the dates the booklet needed to be printed and the dates that the new regulation in question was adopted.

I was told that it would be advisable not to fish "unlisted" sections that are in between stocked sections of water. And that your special sections of Class A etc etc etc that have always been open during this time remain open, but that if the stream is being stocked this year then from the stocking date of February 21st until opening day it is not to be fished regardless if a stream section is not stocked.

The "headwaters to mouth" will apply to waters trout stocked waters in the future and will be clarified in the book next season. As stated above, when in doubt call your local office and ask which I've done. Have a great weekend and good luck to anyone getting out there.

That information, which is totally contrary to what it says in the Summary, defeats the whole purpose of listing the stocking limits and smacks of an uninformed WCO, which is NOT something I haven't experienced before.

If I was inclined to go out and fish non-stocked sections of Stocked Trout Waters this time of year, I'd call the Bureau of Law Enforcement in Harrisburg (717-705-7861) and ask for clarification and see if you can get it IN WRITING.

IF they tell you this WCO was correct, ask them for ME why they bothered going through time and expense of clarifying where you could & couldn't fish this time of year when they planned on F'ing it up a year later.

 

[Mike]

Here is the report on the pertinent Commission action plus an explanation of the intent from the PFBC news release following the July, 2021 Commissioners’ meeting.

“Commissioners adopted an amendment pertaining to 58 Pa. Code § 65.26 (Extended Trout Season). This amendment improves trout stream angling opportunities and experiences to best meet the preferences of anglers while providing additional protection to wild trout during the extended season. The amended regulation will provide increased protection and additional angling opportunities in stream sections managed for wild trout that are downstream from Stocked Trout Waters (STWs). Currently, STWs and all waters downstream from STWs have a creel limit of three trout per day from the day after Labor Day until the last day of February and are closed to fishing from March 1 until 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season. By amending the Extended Trout Season regulation to exclude all waters downstream of a STW, thousands of additional stream miles will be opened to fishing on a year-round basis during the current closed season and harvest of trout will be prohibited during the extended season downstream from STWs. The amendment would go into effect January 1, 2022.”

“In consideration of this amendment change, to better serve anglers seeking stocked trout fishing opportunities, the PFBC intends to add more detailed information about STWs to its annual Fishing Summary/Boating Handbook (Handbook) beginning in 2022. Most stocked trout streams are not stocked throughout their entire length and many of these streams also have sections that are managed for wild trout. Adding the section limits for stocked trout streams to the Handbook will: 1) clearly identify where stocking occurs to increase angler participation, especially for anglers unfamiliar with a stream; 2) provide increased protection to the stream sections managed for wild trout during the extended season; 3) increase angling opportunities for wild trout in sections that are open to year-round fishing; 4) increase angling opportunities downstream of STW sections; and 5) simplify regulations. While these stream section limits are currently published on the PFBC website and FishBoatPA mobile app, defining the limits in the Handbook will provide consistent STW information for anglers who use various sources to identify where to fish for stocked trout.”

 

[dryflyguy]

Man! - And just when we thought that we might have finally figured this out.

To me, a key term in Trout Man Dans post above, is what is meant by "unlisted" sections between stocked sections.
Does it mean NOT class A? - which is what I would think it means
Or just not ATW?

I think I know of a good example of this on Yellow Creek.
There is a short section between the FFO area - which is stocked - and the next stocked section, which begins where the creek first meets route 26, and on downstream
It is not listed as Class A. And therefore, I assume to be closed now.
But if it were class A - would it still be closed because it's between 2 stocked sections?

FWIW, there is a section upstream that IS listed as class A - between the Keagy dam outlet and the mill in Waterside.
And I'm assuming that it is open now - the upper stocked section begins below the mill dam and runs through the FFO area.

But I'm still not real sure of anything yet......

 

[Bamboozle]

Man! - And just when we thought that we might have finally figured this out.

To me, a key term in Trout Man Dans post above, is what is meant by "unlisted" sections between stocked sections.
Does it mean NOT class A? - which is what I would think it means
Or just not ATW?

But I'm still not real sure of anything yet......

Streams & stream sections on the Natural Reproduction list are INDEED open during the closed period and with a few exceptions have been open for years, as are "unlisted streams with no stocking, so don't get hung up on the Class A thing.

Also remember that WCO's are people just like us and just like us, a few of them get confused by the language of all the rules & rule changes. That's why I suggested a call to Harrisburg for clarification to ease the mind of anyone still confused.

 

[dryflyguy]

FWIW -
I've been fishing the FFO section of yellow creek at this time of year, because I know it's legal.
But it is a short stretch of water, and can get crowded - especially on weekends.
And it would be nice to be able to go to other sections

 

[mute]

Streams & stream sections on the Natural Reproduction list are INDEED open during the closed period and with a few exceptions have been open for years, as are "unlisted streams with no stocking, so don't get hung up on the Class A thing.

Also remember that WCO's are people just like us and just like us, a few of them get confused by the language of all the rules & rule changes. That's why I suggested a call to Harrisburg for clarification to ease the mind of anyone still confused.

Is the Harrisburg bureau ran by non confusable robots these days? 😁

 

[Bamboozle]

Back in the good old days before the PFBC made things easier, I had more than a few days when someone would rat me out for fishing after March 1 and I would have to explain to the responding WCO why I was totally legal.

I also had a WCO ask me my I didn't have a trolling motor on my float tube (uhhh, maybe because it's not permitted) and argue with me that it was when I said it wasn't.

Another time, I had DCNR HQ educate a DCNR Ranger at a particular State Park I frequent that he should have NOT asked me to get my float tube off of the lake because it was an illegal inflatable, but rather it is a dual chamber float tube which IS legal on DCNR lakes.

Bottom line, we all make mistakes.

In my case, I am super cautious because I hold the fish & game laws in high regard and would never intentionally break one. However regarding all of those confusing laws...

First, I get my answer from the Bureau of Law Enforcement in Harrisburg, not a Regional Office, WCO or an Internet message board and I get it in writing...

...once I get the definitive answer in writing, I keep a copy on my person when fishing...just in case.

 

[NovaJeff]

Relatively new / amateur fly fisherman here, and it's hilarious, I came to this forum to ask about this EXACT topic because my head was spinning after I read the PFBC page, and here I see this thread!

I thought I finally had figured out that the Special Reg / DHALO section of the East Brandywine between Dorlan and Dowlin WAS OK to fish before "opening day", per language saying it is open year-round. THEN I find the info on the stocking page (form 2021) saying that fishing after mid-Feb until opening day is NOT allowed on stocked waters. This DHALO section of the East Brandywine IS listed as stocked waters on the map from that page.

I wanted to take a friend out for his first ever time fly fishing within the next couple weeks, and now I'm scared it will end up being a horrible first experience if we are either fined/chastised or even just doing something we aren't supposed to be doing!

Seems like some clarity but also back and forth in this thread. Is there a definitive answer of whether this DHALO Spec Reg section of the EB is ok now, or not?

Thank you!

 

[afishinado]

Relatively new / amateur fly fisherman here, and it's hilarious, I came to this forum to ask about this EXACT topic because my head was spinning after I read the PFBC page, and here I see this thread!

I thought I finally had figured out that the Special Reg / DHALO section of the East Brandywine between Dorlan and Dowlin WAS OK to fish before "opening day", per language saying it is open year-round. THEN I find the info on the stocking page (form 2021) saying that fishing after mid-Feb until opening day is NOT allowed on stocked waters. This DHALO section of the East Brandywine IS listed as stocked waters on the map from that page.

I wanted to take a friend out for his first ever time fly fishing within the next couple weeks, and now I'm scared it will end up being a horrible first experience if we are either fined/chastised or even just doing something we aren't supposed to be doing!

Seems like some clarity but also back and forth in this thread. Is there a definitive answer of whether this DHALO Spec Reg section of the EB is ok now, or not?

Thank you!

Yes the DHALO area is open year round >
https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/delayedartificial.html

Good luck fishing.

 

[NovaJeff]

Yes the DHALO area is open year round >
https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/delayedartificial.html

Good luck fishing.

Thank you.
Maybe I’m missing something, but to me it is immensely confusing because of this:
“To accommodate the earlier statewide trout season, preseason trout stocking operations are set to begin the week of February 21. Anglers should note that fishing is not permitted on lakes and streams designated as Stocked Trout Waters from February 21 to the Mentored Youth Trout Fishing Day and the opening day of the regular trout season in April, unless waters are included in the Stocked Trout Waters Open to Year-Round Fishing program.”

Which is from https://www.media.pa.gov/Pages/fish-and-boat-commission-details.aspx?newsid=429

On the last link there “stocked trout waters open to year round fishing”, there is NOTHING for Chester County even listed.

So, is it fair to say that it’s the case that DHALO trumps all?

Thanks again!