Stocked trout don't die

[silverfox]

In another thread it was mentioned that there is an almost 0% survival rate for stocked trout from year to year (at least that's the way I read it and what I've heard before). This morning I went to a Class C (I think it's class C) stream just to see if there were any left.

Completely blew me away in terms of numbers. I brought 24 to the net in 2 hours and there were clearly some fish in that mix that are older than 1 season. I observed literally hundreds of fish in about 1-1/2 miles of stream. The last time this stream was stocked was March of last year. This is what most people would think of as chub water. Just regular ATW or whatever it's called these days. I couldn't believe how well they fought too. I mean ripping drag and running all over the place. One was over 20" and I lost a rainbow that might have been over 24". Several browns in the 16" to 18" range and I spooked some monsters.

I also caught a handful of wild fish, which was sort of partly my mission. Smallest fish was about 10" and what I'm almost certain was a wild rainbow.

I don't know if there's just not that many people who fish anymore or if so many people are practicing C&R that there's just so many more holdovers now? I know this stream has some spring seaps on it that keep areas cold in the summer, but a lot of it gets very very warm. Like bluegills where the trout should be warm.

I'm curious what other's experience is with this kind of stuff? Has anyone else gone on marginal water to see how many stocked fish are holding over? I don't mean project waters, downstream of Class A streams or stuff that gets stocked by clubs, just your regular put-n-take bathtub water cricks.

Edit> Thoughts on whether this is wild?

 

[Canoetripper]

I have a lot of experience with the life cycle of stocked trout at a private R&G club in the western Poconos.

This is where I fish and what I do. I have > than 500 posts on the board and know that I have never once pretended that I was a very good fly fisherman.

I am a 3rd generation R&G private club member and have been fishing there since I was a very young boy. I get my a$$ kicked and laughed at by the more experienced in the Cumberland Valley Limestoners and Clinton County's Big Fishing Creek.

I am now 61 years young and have done a lot of fishing in Colorado and Wyoming, and have been to Alaska twice.

I will spend the rest of the time I have left on the planet at this R&G club in the Poconos.

I love this place. 3 miles of road less wilderness and 825 acres for me to fish and play with my new toy, which is a Garmin GPS watch to go get lost in the woods and then find my way back to my Jeep.

This is what I know about the trout that get stocked there. The trout come from three different private hatcheries that are all local to the Poconos.

#1; brook trout get stocked first while the water temperatures are cold. Most of the members are C&R, but we know that the brook trout will die in the ever increasing water temperatures as summer approaches and continues.

#2; The next trout to get stocked are some browns and than mostly rainbows.

In my opinion, the rainbows are much better fighters than the browns. These are stocked fish. There is no biological reproduction. The water temperatures just get to warm in this body of water that the club owns.

#3; These stocked trout learn how to adapt and survive. They have no choice. There are a lot of predators that know they are there. I always see eagles, and ospreys, and often times otters.

They are very different animals if they can survive through the winter. Otherwise, they are part of the food chain that I described above.

The club does artificial feeding to help these stocked trout hold over through the winter. There is too much $ spent to stock this place not to invest in the resource.

I know that most of this board is predominantly native/wild trout fly fisherman and would never want to fish at a R&G club. I respect and understand that.

At the same time though, all of my outdoor recreation revolves around what I do at this R&G club. So much of it has to do with remembering my grandfather and father.

The bottom line of my post is that stocked trout can and do survive. And, they do become very different after learning how to survive after getting dumped in to the river after being raised in the hatchery.

They don't have any other choice. It is either live another day or be a part of the food chain that knows they are there.

Stocked trout learn how to be more difficult to catch.

 

[RLeep2]

I'm not a biologist. I don't even play one on TV.

But, I would imagine holdover would vary based on the habitat/refuge in a given stream as well as be higher during milder winters like the one we are currently having. Additionally, while it may just be me, it seems like the current flavor of PFBC Rainbows is a more tenacious and adaptable variety than the ones I was used to seeing in the 80's and 90's. In just the 4-5 years since we moved back to PA, I've run into a lot more of them in late winter than I did over the 30+ years total before we moved away.

So, there's that...

By and large though, I continue to believe that holdover in meaningful numbers is still pretty uncommon or rare. Is the OP sure there were no additional supplemental stockings in the interim over the preceding year? I've run into holdovers, sometimes more and sometimes less depending on stream and the nature of the winter. But never anywhere near that many in a single day. Something seems a little hinky to me..

 

[silverfox]

RLeep2 wrote:
I'm not a biologist. I don't even play one on TV.

But, I would imagine holdover would vary based on the habitat/refuge in a given stream as well as be higher during milder winters like the one we are currently having. Additionally, while it may just be me, it seems like the current flavor of PFBC Rainbows is a more tenacious and adaptable variety than the ones I was used to seeing in the 80's and 90's. In just the 4-5 years since we moved back to PA, I've run into a lot more of them in late winter than I did over the 30+ years total before we moved away.

So, there's that...

By and large though, I continue to believe that holdover in meaningful numbers is still pretty uncommon or rare. Is the OP sure there were no additional supplemental stockings in the interim over the preceding year? I've run into holdovers, sometimes more and sometimes less depending on stream and the nature of the winter. But never anywhere near that many in a single day. Something seems a little hinky to me..

I'm about 94.333% sure nobody else is stocking anywhere near where I was. I just checked and the state stocked it in March and again in May last year. It could be that the May stocking was basically unused as people stopped fishing before then.

Also, as I mentioned, these fish were all in great shape. All had all their fins, colorful and solid. They're clearly eating well.

I was more or less commenting on the idea that I think a lot of people hold that stocked trout don't survive past the summer. That may be true in some places, but certainly not on the stream I fished as well as a few others I frequent.

 

[Prospector]

Very pretty Rainbow!!

 

[drakeking412]

I think you have something special in that stream because my experience with Western PA stocked streams is much different

 

[ryansheehan]

That's a sweat rainbow!

 

[Dave_W]

Interesting report and good topic.

I'm inclined to agree that stocked trout often hang in there in greater numbers than many folks think. In years such as this one, or 2009, when temps and flows stay decent over the summer there can be good numbers of fish holding over.

Many of the stocked ATWs in my neck of the woods see virtually no angling pressure after April and I find many still have trout well into summer, especially if they get an in-season stocking (I think in-season stocking could be greatly curtailed on many waters, but this is a topic for another thread). I think the species can make a difference too: smaller browns seem more resilient and likely to hold over than brooks and 'bows.

Anyway,with the above said, most of the ATWs I'm familiar with hold very few trout over as summer temps are just too warm. I think what you've encountered here is unusual, especially the large number of very big fish. It could certainly be true that these are holdovers but the possibility of some sort of late stocking event seems likely to me.

Nevertheless, I'll buy your claims about lack of stocking and agree that this could just be a very good example of stocked trout holdover. We had mild temps and good flows all summer and winter has been mild - let's chalk it up to a combination of good conditions.

You might check this stream again next year (I doubt it's necessary to suggest this!) and see if you see as many holdovers again. Follow up a year from now and let us know what you see.

Good report and very interesting story.

A very nice bow indeed - it's on the large side, but I'm leaning wild.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Many stocked trout streams have the potential to hold fish over, other than about a two week extreme dry spell in early September in ncpa, flows and water temps were in great shape for holdovers. I know I fished a few popular stocked trout streams in July that we're still full of stocked trout. In my experience holdover browns can begin to behave very much like large wild browns after surviving a year or more in the stream.

 

[marcq]

I remember as a kid pre fly fishing I fished a section of the Wissahickon creek that had a small feeder stream which held trout all year long. Big ones. That spot was altered by the township and Has been fish less since. Stream came from a golf course and still to this day has a chalky tint to it. Reminds me of some limestone streams.

Great looking fish

 

[Maurice]

Some thoughts on this thread.

To the OP, bow is not wild. Leathery fins, not translucent for its size and distended anus point to nursery raised.

Hatchery vs nursery terminology. Often we hear of hatchery trout as it equates to stocked trout. Hatcheries propagate trout by fertilizing the eggs of brood fish. Often they raise them to adult or catchable size in a nursery environment. Raceways and ponds where they are fed.

Cooperative nurseries are just that, nurseries, not hatcheries. They do not propagate the fish they raise. Rather they feed out the fingerlings or fry or smolt to catchable size for release to grow or be harvested.

“Clubs” some are cooperative nurseries, some are private nurseries that may buy fish from other sources other than the PFBC raise fish in nursery raceways and ponds or even in streams perhaps by feeding them.

Nursery raised trout or “fed” trout once stocked and never fed again need to acclimate to the new surroundings, be weened off the feed and come around to the instinct of feeding themselves I with available forage in the stream. This usually takes a few days to a week for them to split up and become self reliant. That’s why they are not very good at taking a streamer or moving fly, they don’t know how to eat a minnow, yet. So they either come around or die of starvation or predation or oveor summer/winter mortality. (Or harvest). The ones that make it a year are rare even in the right habitat and forage situation but some do make it. I am witness to this. My experience is that the younger, smaller they are released the better their chance is to learn to fend for themselves and act more like wild fish.

Carrying capacity and biomass peaks based on these factors generally will cull the population to a measured amount likely smaller than that of a particular stocking for put and take. Meaning, put and take stockings are generally greater in biomass than a stream would handle if it were wild. This is a major reason that if harvest isn’t a factor the other factors thin the herd.

This all said. The OPs experience tells me that’s found a unicorn of a stream with all the right conditions;habitat, forage, thermal refuge, etc. Or, it was stocked recently, the fish are being fed. The rainbows weight, distended anus and leathery fins indicate stocked.

Canoetrippers example demonstrates my observation above of a nursery environment. Feeding those fish or “investment” keeps them growing in an environment likely not capable of sustaining such a biomass under normal forage conditions.

Larger marginal streams where thermal refuges exist can and do carryover some stocked trout. We see it every year in our watershed. Cooperative Nursery raised Browns seem to do better than the State raised Browns and rainbows mainly I believe due to their size being smaller than the state fish. (Both length and weight). And the water chemistry being freestone in our watershed vs limestone where they were raised. (ie; tolerance for temperature swings and peaks) But while we do see some carryover success the populations are not that which would provide good fishing.

Remember, if the marginal stream had the habitat, forage and thermal refuge it likely would support a wild population. If it doesn’t and stocking is successful with carryover trout it is likely at a carrying capacity level with a diminishing population until none are present.

 

[Dave_W]

Maurice wrote:

To the OP, bow is not wild. Leathery fins, not translucent for its size and distended anus point to nursery raised.

I'm not convinced.

I noticed the distended anus and consider this common in stocked fish. However a wild rainbow of this size is likely a female and the distended anus may indicate egg growth and pending ovulation? It's the right time of year for this.

Also, the fins look pretty good to me. Take a closer look at that pectoral - clear and sharp edged.

I'm not convinced it's wild, but I'm still leaning that way. If I saw this fish caught from a CV limestoner, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to consider it wild.

So, I dunno. Tough call on this guy.

 

[Maurice]

DW,

Take another look at that pectoral fin. The edge looks like the fingernail of a nervous junkie in a police station.

Regardless, it is still an incredible unlikelyhood tha a stream with no documented wild rainbow population, or class C brown trout would have this over proportioned wild rainbow with no others present or caught that day within the dozens handled.

Again, a unicorn of a stream with a unicorn fish.

That is all I have to say about it.

 

[hooker-of-men]

I noticed the distended anus and consider this common.

This is the wildest this forum has gotten since the secret section got taken down

 

[KenU]

Few stocked trout survive into the fall and only a tiny fraction survives thru the winter. Every trout stream has a carrying capacity according to the amount of food, cover, water temperature and flow, as Maurice and some others have pointed out. Stocking only results in a temporary increase in the number and size of trout available to anglers. This is the reason why we stock. Unfortunately, it also causes a decline in the survival of wild trout, sometimes a very large decline.

 

[PennKev]

KenU wrote:
Few stocked trout survive into the fall and only a tiny fraction survives thru the winter.

In my experience, stocked trout seem to survive the winter much better than they do the summer. Summer is a total crapshoot in terms of water conditions on freestones and low and warm dwindles the number of stocked fish quickly. Even in a good summer, a typical stocked stream will have several periods of low/warm if not for the duration of late spring through early fall. In comparison, trout stocked in the fall have a much easier time unless the fall and winter are particularly dry. Many DHALO areas that receive fall stockings fish pretty well over the winter.

 

[jifigz]

I mostly fish around where I live but I know that around here rainbow trout have absolutely no problem holding over for a long time. If a stream has wild trout in then there is a dang good chance that rainbows will be able to hold over.

 

[marcq]

I might agree with Maurice on this one now. Looking back on past photos I remember catching a absolutely wonderful definitely stocked fish. I soon after found out a group of anglers got together and started a fishing derby where they got some fish donated by a local club who raises trout from fingerling.

I could of sworn the thing was wild at the time.

 

[silverfox]

The interesting thing about the rainbows is that I caught a few others that didn't look anything like that one and they were all a bit bigger. Typical stocked fish. In the not too distant past (about 5 years ago) I caught a small rainbow in the same area that looked very similar to this one. It was way too small to be stocked. [d]Unless someone is stocking fingerling rainbows.[/d] EDIT> see edit below.

This stream does have some limestone influence. A few of them are essentially small limestone streams in and of themselves.

Also, it is listed as supporting natural reproduction, so it may be a class B? I'm not sure what species drives that designation.

As for the holdover thing, I know almost all the landowners and there is certainly no club stockings. Miles upstream there is a guy who puts some commercially bought trout in his stretch, but certainly no R&G clubs etc. Its mostly all private property.

I honestly believe it's a combination of low pressure and just enough of the right conditions for over summer survival. These fish were all there in August. I know that for certain. I didn't fish it then, but I saw them.

Here are 2 wild rainbows that I know with 100% certainty are wild. There are a lot of similarities IMO. Also, as someone mentioned, rainbows should be spawning or approaching spawn now, so it's not out of the question for that to be the explanation for the vent appearence.

EDIT> I just realized that the state stocks fingerling rainbows here. That's probably the answer to the rainbow question. I think I knew this but forgot about it. This is probably enough information now to know where this is. Of course, it's a stocked stream and it needs to be fished, so... You'll want to get permission on most of it.

EDIT 2.0> I forgot to mention that I turned a bunch of rocks and there were stupid amounts of caddis larvae. In fact, when I got home there were a bunch in my gravel guards. Not exactly a sterile stream I guess.

 

[troutbert]

Stocked trout survive through both the summer and winter much better in limestone streams than in freestone streams.

In my experience the percentage of stocked trout that survive through the winter in freestone streams is very close to zero.

But they can survive through the winter in limestone streams. The conditions are much more favorable.