steams where you didnt find trout

[hooker-of-men]

Chaz wrote:

hooker-of-men wrote:
Toms Creek.

Fished it once, but I hike along it with the dog all the time. I have yet to see evidence of fish.

It's a tough stream but I've have some excellent days there. It's pretty fertile for a Pocono Stream too, it has lots of bugs. It is mostly browns with a few brookies so that's what make it tough. When I go, it's early morning when the hikers aren't there yet. I think with the trail along the stream the trout are spooked by the traffic of hikers.

Good to hear; I'll have to keep at it. I only fished the more accessible pools when I was there. I figured I should try to work down into some of those ravines if I was gonna have any luck, but I was lazy so I went and caught fish elsewhere.

 

[k-bob]

the east branch fishing tribs show how pH data can help you choose streams in an area with serious acidity issues. long report below w/ many streams sampled. the stream pH scores range from 4.4 (no chance of trout) to 5.7 (on the edge, but could be a few). so the pH scores look different. all alkalinity scores are < .4, so the alk scores all look the same (very low).

http://fcwa.net/wp-content/uploads/eastbranchrestorationplan.pdf

for example, the pH of heberly @ lewis falls was about 5.7, while the pH of meeker run was 4.4. the alkalinity was < .3 for each one. I fished both before seeing the report, and found a few ST at lewis falls, and of course none on meeker.

I'd like to fish blackberry, known for waterfalls, but with a 4.7 pH I dont see how there could be fish. however, its < .3 alk does not rule out trout, some streams here have that alk and a few trout.

this is a very marginal area for trout, but quinn or shanty runs w/ 5.7 pH may at least have a chance of a few ST. so I'd rather have the pH than the alk in this NEPA ST acid-depo stream info.

how do I feel about fishing tiny nepa streams for years w/o a pH kit? cue the vegetable drink commercial: "wow, I coulda had a pH!"

 

[troutbert]

That reports says that precipitation in that area has pH 4.5-4.6.

Yet they got readings LOWER than that on some streams:

Ore Run - ph 4.17

Meeker Run - ph 4.2

Lead Run - ph 4.44

What's the explanation for that?

 

[k-bob]

dunno how you get stream pH below rain pH, but a few thoughts .. it isnt just rain that has acid, some acid affects streams via dry fallout (hence the term "acid deposition" vs just "acid rain"). acidity can be stored in soil. and snow and ice can concentrate acid to a pH lower than the rain. was there mining up there? (names like Ore and Lead?)

 

[k-bob]

btw nice hiker video of e brnch fishn crk tribs... great hike but serious acidity issues up there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNX6Ud3xvSg

 

[Chaz]

Volcanic activity affects the acid deposition.

 

[pcray1231]

That reports says that precipitation in that area has pH 4.5-4.6.....What's the explanation for that?

 

[pcray1231]

Chaz is also correct, though I doubt it comes into play in PA (other than that the pyrite may be volcanic in origin, if you go WAYYYY back).

I said "normal" rain is 5 point something. Not 7. That's natural too. There is carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. Reacts with water vapor to form carbonic acid. So rain SHOULD be slightly acidic.

Our "acid" rain, though, refers to rain that is more acidic than is natural. The primary culprit is sulfur emissions, and the primary source of that is coal fired power plants. It forms sulfuric acid when mixed with water. Coal hits us twice, both at the mining end and the burning end!

And also note, when reading pH, that it's a logarithmic scale. i.e. a pH of 4.0 is 10x more acidic than a pH of 5 and 100x more acidic than a pH of 6.0.

 

[k-bob]

pat "And also note, when reading pH, that it's a logarithmic scale. i.e. a pH of 4.0 is 10x more acidic than a pH of 5."

right always reminded of this in threads that mention trt mgt in PA and Montana.

http://www.spacareonline.com/images/Misc/ph_map.gif

 

[pcray1231]

Bob, you know I have less experience in NE PA. I'm not saying acid rain is meaningless up there. But with less acidic rain and more acidic streams, it does seem as if you are dealing with more ground related sources of acid (whether it be AMD, other manmade, or natural). Hence your affinity for pH readings, because, even summertime groundwater flows are capturing that.

But other areas of the state, it's quite possible to have a pH reading of 6+ one day and mid 4's on another. The baseline pH readings are more likely to look decent, but there are acidic spikes. That's when you'd want to look at alkalinity more.

It's not that one of us is right and one is wrong, it's just more typically facing a different situation. It's more complicated than a single reading can tell you. You have to understand the limiting factor and CHOOSE what to use.

In any case, if you have a good pH AND decent alkalinity (say, in the neighborhood of 10 or more), then you almost certainly have yourself a stream where acid isn't a limiting factor at all. So then it's just structure, water temps, and the like.

 

[Mike]

We consider a total alkalinity of less than 10 mg/l to be indicative of a stream that is particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of acid precip.

 

[k-bob]

pat I see what you mean and that's why mentioned NEPA in a few posts: I have zero experience in NWPA, for example.

pat "In any case, if you have a good pH AND decent alkalinity (say, in the neighborhood of 10 or more), then you almost certainly have yourself a stream where acid isn't a limiting factor at all."

yes even up in the Schrader area., with acid depo + mining, there's tiny Bull Run (p 13 below), pH near 7 & alk over 10. of course it still needs temps and structure, and hopefully it doesn't dry out too often .

http://www.psiee.psu.edu/publications/reports/psiee/PSIE2002-05-Happel-Phillips-Sharpe.pdf

agree on the multiple variable issue. we having chosen the right state to learn about acidic streams

thanks mike! paying more attention to the alk field on class a now..........

 

[duckfoot]

Chaz wrote:
I've caught brookies in EB Fishing Creek, but not many, the last couple of times none, but I saw a couple.

Yeah, they're there. I'm only four miles away but I can't seem to get a day off to try my luck. :-(

Mike wrote:
We consider a total alkalinity of less than 10 mg/l to be indicative of a stream that is particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of acid precip.

Alkalinity is the buffering agent to pH change.
Low Alk = more pH change, both high and low
High Alk = stable pH

troutbert wrote:
That reports says that precipitation in that area has pH 4.5-4.6.
Yet they got readings LOWER than that on some streams:
Ore Run - ph 4.17
Meeker Run - ph 4.2
Lead Run - ph 4.44
What's the explanation for that?

The acidic rain is falling on the ground, and it is dissolving more acidic deposits that find their way into the stream.

k-bob wrote:
agree on the multiple variable issue. we having chosen the right state to learn about acidic streams

No, the Mississippi/Great Lakes industrial complex chose it for us. :-(

 

[k-bob]

k-bob: "we having chosen the right state to learn about acidic streams "

duckfoot: "No, the Mississippi/Great Lakes industrial complex chose it for us."

I might acknowledge the thirty years I lived in Ohio right about now

 

[troutbert]

duckfoot wrote:

No, the Mississippi/Great Lakes industrial complex chose it for us.

There are plenty of coal burning power plants in PA, also.

 

[troutbert]

k-bob wrote:
dunno how you get stream pH below rain pH, but a few thoughts .. it isnt just rain that has acid, some acid affects streams via dry fallout (hence the term "acid deposition" vs just "acid rain"). acidity can be stored in soil. and snow and ice can concentrate acid to a pH lower than the rain. was there mining up there? (names like Ore and Lead?)

I think that mining is quite possibly the explanation.

The stream names of Ore Run and Lead Run, and pHs well below that of precipitation, make that at least a hypothesis well worth checking out. But I don't think anyone has.

If those low pH levels are coming from small old mining operations that would open up possibilities for restoration there, that could really improve things on those small tribs and on Sullivan Branch and East Branch Fishing Creek.

 

[pcray1231]

There are plenty of coal burning power plants in PA, also.

Not anymore!!! (well, soon to be)

PA coal power plants that have (or are planned to) shut down between 2012 and 2017.

Armstrong
Cromby
Eddystone
Elrama
Hatfields Ferry
Hunlock
Mitchell
New Castle
Penn State West
Portland
Shawville
Sunbury
Titus

That's just in PA. It's approaching 50% of our coal capacity in this state. Nationwide, the # stands at 20% of coal capacity that is going bye bye. The %'s are higher in the rust belt areas as our coal plants tend to be older, and it's the older ones that are being shut. All said, because it's the older ones, it's also the ones with the ancient scrubbers and so forth that cause the majority of the acid rain. I've seen estimates that sulfur emissions will be reduced by 80+%.

The immediate cause? Many will say EPA regulations. However, the real cause is GAS, which allowed the EPA to make those regulations without forcing the country into darkness.

So, for those that rant about the environmental damage of the gas industry, recognize that it is indeed displacing COAL, and ask yourself which is worse. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be vigilant to make sure gas is done as well as it can be. But a little perspective is needed. IMO, we do want to do it "right", but we don't want to delay either, as all that does is keep coal holding on that much longer.

I would imagine the pH of our rainfall will raise substantially. I recognize that lost buffering capability is lost forever in a lot of places, and technically, what this does is merely reduce the rate at which we lose buffering. That said, I have trouble believing that many streams won't actually improve.

If they do, the hidden danger is brown trout!

 

[Chaz]

Acid deposition can happen anytime a volcano, they spew out tons of sulphur during an eruption and it can mix with Precip, or condense and drop out to the ground. That is why most freestone streams are on the acidic side of neutral ph.
Pyrite is everywhere especially in mining areas, but not limited to those areas. The mentioned area of Stytop along I99 could have been prevented if the boneheads had looked up in geology books that the entire ridge where I 99 cuts through has a huge vain that has been exposed in the past. If you don't study history you are doomed to repeat it!!! Shame on Penn Dot, they could have saved the embarrassment in 5 minutes of research.
The high acidic streams extent over the ridge into the Loyalsock Drainage to the west. Many of the headwaters there are impacted by acid deposition and AMD.

 

[k-bob]

pat is clearly right about important reductions in acidity discharge into the air. apparently stream acidity declines with a variable lag after the air improves:

http://www.npca.org/news/magazine/all-issues/2015/winter/what-the-streams-say.html

"streams in sandy watersheds are still acidic, and streams in rockier watersheds have seen acidity decline along with the fall in sulfate pollution."

believe I have read that areas with thinner, rockier soils from glaciers (e.g. much of NEPA) retain less acidity. so they might show more rapid stream water pH increases with rainwater pH increases...

http://academic.keystone.edu/JSkinner/TunkCreekAtlas/GlacialDepositsInPA.htm

 

[k-bob]

also, an important share of the damage from acid deposition is caused in brief acid shocks from snowmelt. if dry deposition lessens and the snow become less acidic, I assume these acid shocks become less severe.