Peyton
Active member
we aren't wrong, does anybody bring spotted lanternflies or emerald ash bores to their property because they are fun to catch? I have never heard of that. snakeheads are just the same, invasive, and destroy eco systems.
tomgamber
Well-known member
and they're delicious...or so I'm told. Fred, if you bring a fresh one or two to the Jam I cook it up for all to sample.
sgrim
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The ship has sailed Peyton. Squishing a few lanternflies every year doesn't stem the tide of the expanding population, nor will killing a few snakeheads slow down the already established population of snakeheads where they are present and breeding. I target and catch them when I can and release them, as I do all fish.
Peyton
Active member
They used to cover tree trunks enough that you couldn't see the bark. Now I only see 100 a year. killing them stops them from spreading farther. I would like to hear if people treat Asian carp the same as snakeheads.
M
Mike
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The ship has not quite sailed; it depends upon the location and the amount of angling pressure. For example, Meadow Lake, the first site in Pa where snakeheads were found, has for a number of years had anglers say that the snakehead numbers are way down in comparison to when they first became established there . Anglers discovered pretty early that removal of nest guarding adults resulted in the lake’s abundant bluegills gobbling up the snakehead fry on short order. Harvesting a couple of adults in “spawning or nest guarding mode” in such cases disturbs the behavioral adaptation that allows snakehead reproduction to be so successful. Additionally, relatively new populations as well as those in less than desirable habitat can be subject to substantial impact from angling, as least early on in population development.
Even mature populations can have substantial pressure exerted by anglers if it happens that there is some reason that they annually congregate in higher densities than normal at a particular location, such as at the base of a dam that is quite accessible to anglers. There are at least three dams in SE Pa where congregations occur and anglers are targeting them with success. I would add that those dams are substantial blockages for American eel elver/small yellow eel migration. As such, the eels are at the very least delayed in going around or over the dams and subject to predation by congregated snakeheads. In such circumstances, removing a single snakehead may save dozens to hundreds of eels. Even if the eels are consumed by a naturally occurring native predator, such as a striped bass at a later date, it’s better that the predator prey relationships function naturally, given the eels’ and striped bass’ ecological and/or fisheries importance and their struggling populations along the east coast.
Even mature populations can have substantial pressure exerted by anglers if it happens that there is some reason that they annually congregate in higher densities than normal at a particular location, such as at the base of a dam that is quite accessible to anglers. There are at least three dams in SE Pa where congregations occur and anglers are targeting them with success. I would add that those dams are substantial blockages for American eel elver/small yellow eel migration. As such, the eels are at the very least delayed in going around or over the dams and subject to predation by congregated snakeheads. In such circumstances, removing a single snakehead may save dozens to hundreds of eels. Even if the eels are consumed by a naturally occurring native predator, such as a striped bass at a later date, it’s better that the predator prey relationships function naturally, given the eels’ and striped bass’ ecological and/or fisheries importance and their struggling populations along the east coast.
Peyton
Active member
I 100% agree with you
M
Mike
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The next places in SE Pa where I expect to see concentrations of snakeheads develop in stretches downstream from dams are the dams on Maiden Creek. These are not eel blockages (at present) of the type that I described in #25 above, however, because the eel population is presently depauperate in the Schuylkill R. basin other than in tidal water due to lower river dams.
This eel situation could change if PFBC administrators and dam owners become more interested in the future concerning eel passage and restoration in the Schuylkill basin. After all, there are no turbines on Schuylkill R dams that could impact adult eel out-migration so allowing upstream migration of elvers and/or small yellow eels is the only challenge and that challenge has been and will be greatly reduced by the continued removal of dams in the Schuylkill basin.
This eel situation could change if PFBC administrators and dam owners become more interested in the future concerning eel passage and restoration in the Schuylkill basin. After all, there are no turbines on Schuylkill R dams that could impact adult eel out-migration so allowing upstream migration of elvers and/or small yellow eels is the only challenge and that challenge has been and will be greatly reduced by the continued removal of dams in the Schuylkill basin.
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sgrim
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Mike, I defer to your experience and knowledge of the data. My point was that we've been having the same conversation about the snakehead expansion for 20-ish years, and despite the messaging about killing them off we continue to see them spread. That's what I meant about sailed ships. The measures can obviously be effective if we ALL do it, but that hasn't happened yet and I can't foresee a day when it does.
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
Changed that for you....
"The finest gift you can give any fisherman is to dispatch an invasive fish. Who knows if the fish you put back will be the one that lives and causes that entire ecosystem to become out of balance, ruining it for future generations."
> afishinado
Fredrick
Well-known member
How many brown trout have you dispatched this year tweed , you cant hear it but the mic was just dropped
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
Pick up your mic, Fred.
Brown trout are no doubt invasive when looking at how they have effected the brook trout populations in PA. But now they are established in streams, and still stocked, while wild brown trout are now part of the ecosystem of many PA streams. If I had a voice back in the 1880's I would have been against stocking them in PA streams.....but that ship has sailed long ago.
How does one mistake which happened in the 1880's make right doing the same thing in the 2020's?
Unfortunately snakeheads are here to stay in certain lakes, rivers and streams in PA. But it would be a shame if they were spread to more and more places. Reports that a few snakesheads were stocked in Marsh Creek Reservoir, close to where I live, by some poophead. You can be sure I will dispatch any I catch to do my part to prevent them from invading that lake, too!
But if you invited me to fish in your snakehead invested honey hole, I would return them to the water out of respect for you, just like I do brown trout because the snakehead ship has also sailed in that waterway. But I sure as hell wouldn't go around spreading them too other lakes or rivers cuz I like fishin' fer dem..... Too wrongs don't make a right. Hopefully the invasive snakehead will do no harm and just become another fish to catch in the future. But no one really knows how things will turn out everywhere they are stocked.
Peyton
Active member
I heard about them in marsh, I fish there for musky so hopefully they will eat some of them.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
“That ship has sailed” I hear that phase a lot when it comes to invasive species of trout. Or another I hear a lot is “cats out of the bag.” Makes me chuckle. Well guess what guys that ship is making a GD U-turn and the cat is getting stuffed back in that bag because here comes XYY super males combined with selective manual removal.
“ time to extirpation 2-4 years”if fitness of the genetic supermales are decent. With genomics and gene editing this is likely just the beginning we will have the ability to do much much more in the future.
Brown trout and rainbow trout are both invasive species and damage our ecosystem and food web extensively. I’m guessing no one else here reads research about how the effect sculpins hellbenders darters ect. But it’s not good. We often look at this as brown/rainbow trout vs. brook trout when in fact it’s invasive salmonid that hurts entire food web vs native salmonid that evolved in it. There are big implications besides just our fishing. Brown and rainbow trout listed in scientific community in top 100 worst invasive species world wide by IUCN http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/100_worst.php
and have wiped out Native fish from New Zealand to Himalayas to Us.
“ time to extirpation 2-4 years”if fitness of the genetic supermales are decent. With genomics and gene editing this is likely just the beginning we will have the ability to do much much more in the future.
Brown trout and rainbow trout are both invasive species and damage our ecosystem and food web extensively. I’m guessing no one else here reads research about how the effect sculpins hellbenders darters ect. But it’s not good. We often look at this as brown/rainbow trout vs. brook trout when in fact it’s invasive salmonid that hurts entire food web vs native salmonid that evolved in it. There are big implications besides just our fishing. Brown and rainbow trout listed in scientific community in top 100 worst invasive species world wide by IUCN http://www.iucngisd.org/gisd/100_worst.php
and have wiped out Native fish from New Zealand to Himalayas to Us.
M
moon1284
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Neither Brown trout or rainbow trout are invasive in PA.
silverfox
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Care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
-They did not evolve here
- they harm larger food web
-they are listed as invasive species in United States on international global species data base in too 100 worst and by the IUCN.
Do you have a mountain of research I don’t know about to counter these international scientific organizations? Lol
Fly-Swatter
Well-known member
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DEFINITION: (source - https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/invasive-species/)
An invasive species is an organism that is not indigenous, or native, to a particular area. Invasive species can cause great economic and environmental harm to the new area.
Not all non-native species are invasive. For example, most of the food crops grown in the United States, including popular varieties of wheat, tomatoes, and rice, are not native to the region.
To be invasive, a species must adapt to the new area easily. It must reproduce quickly. It must harm property, the economy, or the native plants and animals of the region.
Many invasive species are introduced into a new region accidentally. Zebra mussels are native to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea in Central Asia. Zebra mussels arrived in the Great Lakes of North America accidentally, stuck to large ships that traveled between the two regions. There are now so many zebra mussels in the Great Lakes that they have threatened native species.
Introduced Species
Some species are brought to a new area on purpose. Often, these species are introduced as a form of pest control. Other times, introduced species are brought in as pets or decorative displays. People and businesses that import these species do not anticipate the consequences. Even scientists are not always sure how a species will adapt to a new environment.
Introduced species multiply too quickly and become invasive.
_____________________________
My thoughts...
So, brown trout are introduces then outcompete native brook trout. It's situational. Brook trout are invasive out west.
Here's the rub: Just because a fish we revere (smallmouth bass, brown trout, etc.) is invasive, it does not automatically follow that we should ignore the potential damage that can be causes by snakeheads. That's a little bit like saying "I got fat by eating too many burgers. What harm could ice cream do?"
Or, to be more simple and direct: two wrongs don't make it right.
Using already established invasive species as a rational for promoting a new invasive is wrongheaded.
An invasive species is an organism that is not indigenous, or native, to a particular area. Invasive species can cause great economic and environmental harm to the new area.
Not all non-native species are invasive. For example, most of the food crops grown in the United States, including popular varieties of wheat, tomatoes, and rice, are not native to the region.
To be invasive, a species must adapt to the new area easily. It must reproduce quickly. It must harm property, the economy, or the native plants and animals of the region.
Many invasive species are introduced into a new region accidentally. Zebra mussels are native to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea in Central Asia. Zebra mussels arrived in the Great Lakes of North America accidentally, stuck to large ships that traveled between the two regions. There are now so many zebra mussels in the Great Lakes that they have threatened native species.
Introduced Species
Some species are brought to a new area on purpose. Often, these species are introduced as a form of pest control. Other times, introduced species are brought in as pets or decorative displays. People and businesses that import these species do not anticipate the consequences. Even scientists are not always sure how a species will adapt to a new environment.
Introduced species multiply too quickly and become invasive.
_____________________________
My thoughts...
So, brown trout are introduces then outcompete native brook trout. It's situational. Brook trout are invasive out west.
Here's the rub: Just because a fish we revere (smallmouth bass, brown trout, etc.) is invasive, it does not automatically follow that we should ignore the potential damage that can be causes by snakeheads. That's a little bit like saying "I got fat by eating too many burgers. What harm could ice cream do?"
Or, to be more simple and direct: two wrongs don't make it right.
Using already established invasive species as a rational for promoting a new invasive is wrongheaded.
G
gutbucket
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- Apr 15, 2019
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- 2
Marsh Creek Lake has them. I have seen them on shore near the dam where people throw them to die. biggest one was maybe 14 inches or so...
