Small Stream Scouting (Wild Trout/Natural Reproduction List)

[Bamboozle]

I was looking to do some small stream scouting over the next couple weeks. Mainly looking at some local streams on the Wild Trout/Natural Reproduction List (not the Class A list). I just wanted to see if anyone had any tips for scoping these places out (anything specific to look for?) With it being July and very hot is it even worth trying to fish or should I just walk the stream and plan a return?. If I do return what's the best setup to entice a wild brook or brown trout? Assuming they would be small fish as the creeks I'm looking at on the map are on the smaller side.

Reconnoitering for new "wild" streams takes a lot of time so the first piece of advice I can offer is to do as much due diligence as you can before hand. For example:

So you don't spend an entire day "looking" and not fishing, reconnoiter at least one or two new locations each time you are headed to a destination where you KNOW you can fish.​

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Use Google Street View & Google Earth to see if there is anywhere to park and to look for NO TRESPASSING signs.​

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Check individual county parcel maps in an attempt to determine ownership so you don't trespass (I hope you read jifigz's post (#11).​

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Call the Area Fisheries Manager or WCO and ask they what can they tell you about Creek X.​

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When you think you found something, use a GPS or GPS app to "mark" the access points. It will save you time later for a lot of tasks like ownership research, finding your way back for an initial or second visit...​

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...or if you get lost in the woods. ​

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If you have many rod length options and you don't want to carry them all, try and determine IN ADVANCE what length of rod is suitable so you bring the correct tackle when you attempt to fish the new location.​

As already mentioned by others, get a stream thermometer however tie about 20 or more feet of some type of thin cord to the thermometer. Allow me to explain...​

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...I carry a set-up like this in my glove box year round in addition to the thermometer I carry while fishing. When I come to a new stream or a place I am familiar with, I look for a bridge, pull over and just lower the thermometer in the water. It sure beats having to find a way down TO the creek to check temps which also means doing it this way saves time.​

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BTW - Don't let anyone make you believe an IR thermometer will accomplish the same thing.​

As far as "set-up" goes, just remember you aren't fishing some bigger stream so keep things shorter and simple and you will do fine.

P.S. - If you don't want to make enemies, keep referring to your new finds as Creek X.

 

[jeffroey]

Hi M. Welcome to the forum.

When I research a new stream I haven't explored before, and along with the really obvious advice like parking, public/private access, having a nearby fallback stream at the ready (in case there's a car already in the lot or I don't like what I see), etc. . . . I have a checklist of about seven or eight core "features" I evaluate as part of my determination if it's worth making the investment in driving and hiking time. Here's one of my 'big 8' that's a good tactical small stream evaluation tip for you to add to your new tool box:

I always check the stream's Contributory Drainage Area. I think how much drainage flows into the stream from the surrounding topo is an important metric to help predict how likely it will be that the stream will have water in it in the middle of July. There are other factors I use with drainage info that helps me "guess" at the likelihood of sight unseen fishable water. I'll leave it to you to determine what your threshold drainage criteria is based on your upcoming experiences and what other info you collect to supplement it but knowing how to calculate it is an important first step.

How to calculate the Contributory Drainage Area using USGS Stream Stats:

1. Go to https://streamstats.usgs.gov/ss/

2. Search for your location by entering an exact address, town name, zip code, county, etc. or panning the map. You can change the Base Map in the upper right section of the display.

3. Select PENNSYLVANIA as the State or Regional Study Area.

4. Zoom into the map until blue streams appear pixelated (Zoom Level 15 or greater in the tool).

5. Click the DELINEATE Button to activate delineation tool.

6. Select your exact assessment location by clicking on the stream you’re targeting at your desired location.

7. Delineating will begin and a yellow delineated drainage basin will appear on the screen

8. Scroll to the bottom of the left pane and select CONTINUE

9. Expand the BASIN CHARACTERISTICS drop down menu, select Drainage Area (DRNAREA) and any other data types that interest you.

10. Select CONTINUE to calculate selected basin characteristics

11. Once completed you can select the OPEN REPORT to view the data. Drainage Area is given in square miles.

12. You can DOWNLOAD a copy of the report from within the “open Report” pane.

I think assessing drainage is a valuable tip - that might be the only one of the seven or eight I might share

 

[troutbert]

Hi M. Welcome to the forum.

When I research a new stream I haven't explored before, and along with the really obvious advice like parking, public/private access, having a nearby fallback stream at the ready (in case there's a car already in the lot or I don't like what I see), etc. . . . I have a checklist of about seven or eight core "features" I evaluate as part of my determination if it's worth making the investment in driving and hiking time. Here's one of my 'big 8' that's a good tactical small stream evaluation tip for you to add to your new tool box:

I always check the stream's Contributory Drainage Area. I think how much drainage flows into the stream from the surrounding topo is an important metric to help predict how likely it will be that the stream will have water in it in the middle of July. There are other factors I use with drainage info that helps me "guess" at the likelihood of sight unseen fishable water. I'll leave it to you to determine what your threshold drainage criteria is based on your upcoming experiences and what other info you collect to supplement it but knowing how to calculate it is an important first step.

How to calculate the Contributory Drainage Area using USGS Stream Stats:

1. Go to https://streamstats.usgs.gov/ss/

2. Search for your location by entering an exact address, town name, zip code, county, etc. or panning the map. You can change the Base Map in the upper right section of the display.

3. Select PENNSYLVANIA as the State or Regional Study Area.

4. Zoom into the map until blue streams appear pixelated (Zoom Level 15 or greater in the tool).

5. Click the DELINEATE Button to activate delineation tool.

6. Select your exact assessment location by clicking on the stream you’re targeting at your desired location.

7. Delineating will begin and a yellow delineated drainage basin will appear on the screen

8. Scroll to the bottom of the left pane and select CONTINUE

9. Expand the BASIN CHARACTERISTICS drop down menu, select Drainage Area (DRNAREA) and any other data types that interest you.

10. Select CONTINUE to calculate selected basin characteristics

11. Once completed you can select the OPEN REPORT to view the data. Drainage Area is given in square miles.

12. You can DOWNLOAD a copy of the report from within the “open Report” pane.

I think assessing drainage is a valuable tip - that might be the only one of the seven or eight I might share

After doing that, what is your cutoff between "worth a try" and "too small?"

I do assess drainage area, but in more of an informal way. I look at topo maps on Acmemapper and make a judgment call on whether the stream will be too small or large enough to be worth a try. With some experience, you can make a pretty good guess.

 

[Swattie87]

After doing that, what is your cutoff between "worth a try" and "too small?"

I do assess drainage area, but in more of an informal way. I look at topo maps on Acmemapper and make a judgment call on whether the stream will be too small or large enough to be worth a try. With some experience, you can make a pretty good guess.

Here’s my take on small streams and sq mileage of the drainage size…

< 1.0 sq mile: Too small to even try (unless you’re Kbob). Good chance it goes dry for significant portions of the Summer.

1.0 - 2.5 sq miles: Tiny. I don’t fish these, unless they’re really steep. The gradient, if high enough - like 8 or 10% or more, can make these fishable and seem “bigger” than they actually are. You get to a flat section and realize how little water is actually there.

2.5 - 5.0 sq miles: Small, but these are all generally fishable, if you’re into that. This is my normal cutoff. May require a lot of bow and arrow casting and other trick shots, especially if there’s rhodo or laurel present. Or multiflora rose in the SE portion of the state.

5.0 - 10.0 sq miles: These are still pretty small, but once they get to this size they’re generally fishable with normal casting techniques. Exception being complete rhodo fortress streams.

10.0 - 25.0 square miles: Ideal. These are generally my favorites. You still have a “small” stream experience, but you’ve got plenty of room to cast and even if there is a lot of rhodo, the stream is big enough that it usually can’t fully encompass the stream channel.

> 25.0 sq miles: You now have a “medium” sized stream, by PA standards. If freestone, this is about the size where you typically start to run into thermal issues in the average Summer.

There’s exceptions to the above, but good general rules I’ve found.

 

[jeffroey]

Here’s my take on small streams and sq mileage of the drainage size…

< 1.0 sq mile: Too small to even try (unless you’re Kbob). Good chance it goes dry for significant portions of the Summer.

1.0 - 2.5 sq miles. Tiny. I don’t fish these, unless they’re really steep. The gradient, if high enough - like 8 or 10% or more, can make these fishable and seem “bigger” than they actually are. You get to a flat section and realize how little water is actually there.

2.5 - 5.0 sq miles. Small, but these are all generally fishable, if you’re into that. This is my normal cutoff. May require a lot of bow and arrow casting and other trick shots, especially if there’s rhodo or laurel present. Or multiflora rose in the SE portion of the state.

5.0 - 10.0 sq miles. These are still pretty small, but once they get to this size they’re generally fishable with normal casting techniques. Exception being complete rhodo fortress streams.

10.0 - 25.0 square miles. Ideal. These are generally my favorites. You still have a “small” stream experience, but you’ve got plenty of room to cast and even if there is a lot of rhodo, the stream is big enough that it usually can’t fully encompass the stream channel.

> 25.0 sq miles: You now have a “medium” sized stream, by PA standards.

There’s exceptions to the above, but good general rules I’ve found.

Wow. This is a great gauge! FWIW, my personal threshold numbers sway a little more to the left (the kbob end) of Swattie's scale and I'll admit up front that they've been heavily influenced by kbob.

The most important piece of advice for a beginner might be to start collecting/using metrics like the one we're discussing to come up with your own thresholds based on what type of experiences you're looking for and what you see on the water.

The more tools like this you add to your tool box, the better you'll get at assessing a seemingly random line on a map before getting eyes on.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt a little bit to collect feedback and insight on how to use these tools from the likes of Swattie, Bam, Oscelot, the aforementioned kbob, and others on this forum. Any one of those guys could admin/chair the brand new "PAFlyfish Small Stream Hunters" sub-forum and semi-annual in-person workshops (I hope that was subtle enough).

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I appreciate your kind words Jeff, but I am no expert small stream hunter. In fact I don't even understand what you and Swattie are discussing with the square mileage. I come from the "just wing it and see what happens" way of doing things. All this number stuff hurts my simple brain. I lift rod, I bring rod back down (casting). Hopefully I catch fish.

Now if OP wants to discuss catching panfish, chubs, dace, fallfish, or suckers, or how to waste as much money as possible in this hobby, I'm your man!

 

[Bamboozle]

Here’s my take on small streams and sq mileage of the drainage size…

< 1.0 sq mile: Too small to even try (unless you’re Kbob). Good chance it goes dry for significant portions of the Summer.

1.0 - 2.5 sq miles: Tiny. I don’t fish these, unless they’re really steep. The gradient, if high enough - like 8 or 10% or more, can make these fishable and seem “bigger” than they actually are. You get to a flat section and realize how little water is actually there.

2.5 - 5.0 sq miles: Small, but these are all generally fishable, if you’re into that. This is my normal cutoff. May require a lot of bow and arrow casting and other trick shots, especially if there’s rhodo or laurel present. Or multiflora rose in the SE portion of the state.

5.0 - 10.0 sq miles: These are still pretty small, but once they get to this size they’re generally fishable with normal casting techniques. Exception being complete rhodo fortress streams.

10.0 - 25.0 square miles: Ideal. These are generally my favorites. You still have a “small” stream experience, but you’ve got plenty of room to cast and even if there is a lot of rhodo, the stream is big enough that it usually can’t fully encompass the stream channel.

> 25.0 sq miles: You now have a “medium” sized stream, by PA standards. If freestone, this is about the size where you typically start to run into thermal issues in the average Summer.

There’s exceptions to the above, but good general rules I’ve found.

I hate science because I'm too stupid to embrace it, I just hop in the car and take a look.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

^Same

 

[Swattie87]

I appreciate your kind words Jeff, but I am no expert small stream hunter. In fact I don't even understand what you and Swattie are discussing with the square mileage. I come from the "just wing it and see what happens" way of doing things.

That works just as well from a practical perspective. I mainly apply the “science” to limit my driving time and expenses, and make the most of the chances I get to get out and fish. If I know a stream is going to be too small to be fun for me, I can scratch that one off the list without investing my time or money into getting there and fishing it. It’s not an exact science though, as I’m sure there are some outliers that I’m probably missing out on by just writing them off without trying them.

But, it’s all relative too. That 10.0 - 25.0 sq mile size range that I seem to like best might as well be Penns or the Little J to Kbob, for example.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

What does this 10.0-25.0 size range equate to in terms of how wide the stream is on average or are a flow rate (cfs)?

 

[Swattie87]

I dunno exactly. I’d say that range probably translates to a stream that is 15 feet to maybe 40 feet across or so. No clue on the flow rate, most streams that small don’t have gauges on them and the flow can vary wildly clearly.

Streams like Slate, Cedar, Valley, Cross Fork Creek, YWC branches above their confluence, Kettle above Little Kettle confluence would roughly fall into that category. For example, and without spotburning.

 

[jeffroey]

I mainly apply the “science” to limit my driving time and expenses, and make the most of the chances I get to get out and fish.

Exactly the same. I'm located just outside of Philly. Most streams and certainly new ones are two hours away. Just trying to maximize potential.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I'm in the same boat as Jeff and Swattie in terms of geographic locations. I can understand why you guys do what you do, after all, good intel is the key to success, and you want to maximize you fishing time fishing viable water. During this time of year I just change up the species and watersheds I target. The bluegill bite is WELL on, and those little b******* put up more of a fight than any native brookie I've caught, so they get my attention now. I will resume trouting come fall.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

What does this 10.0-25.0 size range equate to in terms of how wide the stream is on average or are a flow rate (cfs)?

I think the USGS gauges on Mountain Creek (Cumberland) and Bermudian Creek (Adams) fall in that category. Might be a good place to look for answers.

 

[Swattie87]

I think the USGS gauges on Mountain Creek (Cumberland) and Bermudian Creek (Adams) fall in that category. Might be a good place to look for answers.

Not familiar with Bermudian, but Mountain Creek would be one that would fit that size range being discussed above.