small stream dry fly leaders

[greenlander]

jdaddy wrote:
My issue is that I fish leaders 12-15' and when fighting fish knots get caught in/on guides. I also believe the bulk of the knots create additional drag potential. But you know, to each his own.

I guess I can see that. I almost never go over 12, maybe 13 feet ... and I've got a 5 foot butt section when I've got a leader that long on ... so even when fighting a fish it'd be hard for the first knot to get into my guides.

 

[dryflyguy]

jdaddy wrote:

greenlander wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something -- but who cares if they go right through the guides? You're not casting your leader. You're casting your fly line.

The only time any knot on my leader goes through my guides is when I'm stringing my rod up.

My issue is that I fish leaders 12-15' and when fighting fish knots get caught in/on guides. I also believe the bulk of the knots create additional drag potential. But you know, to each his own.

I'm usually able to solve this problem by sweeping the rod as high, and back over my head as much as possible.

 

[BrookieBuster101]

evw659 wrote:
i guess i should have specified in my original post that i tie al my own leaders. store bought leaders are fine, but paying 4 or 5 dollars a piece for a leader i could tie myself in 6-7 minutes is rediculous. i bought the maxima 1-25 lb line pack or 45 dollars and have 20 plus leaders with it and still have a ton left. i am just looking for a very simple short leader that works well with dries. i go through 1 or 2 leaders per brookie trip because of sagging in brush, trees and other foliage. i made up a leader formula that may work: any suggestions as to the formula?

16" 25 lb
24" 20 lb
16" 12 lb
12" 8 lb
20 inches of 4x or 3x rio tippet

One hand tied leader should last you a long time, even with snags. I am constantly rebuilding the tip section of my leader on the stream. My suggestion would be to, if you don't have one already, get a tippit spool and buy 2x-7x flourocarbon spools. Frogs hair is good stuff. It hurts initially looking at the price, but one day I just said screw it and bought a bunch. And trust me it has been very useful.

Jdaddy wrote:
My issue is that I fish leaders 12-15' and when fighting fish knots get caught in/on guides. I also believe the bulk of the knots create additional drag potential. But you know, to each his own.

I have never had that problem and I also fish long leaders when im not stalking brook trout. Like greenlander said youve got long pieces of straight mono for your butt section and after that the rest really shouldnt come down in contact with the guides. Is there a notch on your top guide b/c on older rods that can happen after awhile and it can be a pain. I know with my steelhead rod that is 5+ years old there is a little notch and i cannot shoot line like I used to be able to do and knots do get caught on it.

 

[greenlander]

BrookieBuster101 wrote:

One hand tied leader should last you a long time, even with snags. I am constantly rebuilding the tip section of my leader on the stream.

Agreed. If I wanted to, I could make a single hand tied leader last at least 5-6 outings. If I would get off my lazy *** and finally order some tippet rings from somewhere, I could make it last an entire season.

Even without tippet rings, the only reason I normally need to replace the sections of the leader that are larger than 2x fluoro is because of the kinks that my thingamabobbers put in them (which is why I'm planning to stop using them, despite how much I like how high they float).

 

[Chaz]

BTW a blood knot is the weakest knot you can use to tie your leaders. I've seen stats that indicate strength from 50% to 90% on a bloodknot. Other knots are much higher, bloodknots are used to tie similar thicknesses of lines. I've never had a bloodknot hold.
I use a surgeons knot to tie my leaders.

 

[greenlander]

Chaz wrote:
I use a surgeons knot to tie my leaders.

Likewise. Not to mention, a surgeon's is stupid easy to tie compared to a blood knot (compared to anything, for that matter).

 

[Acristickid]

Unless you fish a specific water a certain way all the time, no one leader is ubiquitous. Different types of fishing require different types of leaders.

Hand tied turnover better. Never used a furled leader but I would like to try.

I nail knot mine because I dont care for the loop to loop, which is a reason I dont change up too much. Wish I had an extra spool sometimes to switch'em up. Not too obsequious about leaders or flyfishing in general but others certainly are.

As far as small streams and brookies in particular go thick- agree, 4x is the lowest diameter one would normally need.

 

[Chaz]

You don't need a butt section anywhere near 25 lbs. for brookie fishing or any trout for that matter. Having said that I've never used hand tied leaders. For a long time I used Orvis braided leader and still love the way they sat, but too often they get wrecked in trees.
Using knotless tapered leaders is perfect for me. As they get shortened I may add a bit of 3X or 4X to them so I can get longer life. I can use a leader for 2 seasons only ever having to re-tie the tippet.
As someone else said who cares whether the leader goes through the eyes smoothly, you don't cast the leader through the eyes anyway. You're going to pull the leader through and get a little fly line out beyond the tip top of the rod before even tying on a fly.

 

[dryflyguy]

The problem with the leader coming back into the guides as you land a fish, is that the loop connecters and knots can get caught in the tip. And I've had fish decide to take another good run after that had happened, and broken off - because there was no more drag to give.

 

[BrookieBuster101]

greenlander wrote:

BrookieBuster101 wrote:

One hand tied leader should last you a long time, even with snags. I am constantly rebuilding the tip section of my leader on the stream.

Agreed. If I wanted to, I could make a single hand tied leader last at least 5-6 outings. If I would get off my lazy *** and finally order some tippet rings from somewhere, I could make it last an entire season.

Even without tippet rings, the only reason I normally need to replace the sections of the leader that are larger than 2x fluoro is because of the kinks that my thingamabobbers put in them (which is why I'm planning to stop using them, despite how much I like how high they float).

Try a dry dropper with a Q-Tip for an "indicator." Ive messed around with alot of Drys for my dry dropper rig and none compare to that fly. It sits high in the water and is super sensitive. You can actually see your nymphs ticking across the rocks.
Im not sure why but alot of people dont fish long dry dropper rigs. I think they are killer

Chaz wrote:
BTW a blood knot is the weakest knot you can use to tie your leaders. I've seen stats that indicate strength from 50% to 90% on a bloodknot. Other knots are much higher, bloodknots are used to tie similar thicknesses of lines. I've never had a bloodknot hold.
I use a surgeons knot to tie my leaders.

Practice makes perfect Chaz ;-)

Heres my usual dropper rig. Its good because in a pinch it can be made a deep into a nymph rig just by cutting off the Q-Tip

 

[BrookieBuster101]

dryflyguy wrote:
The problem with the leader coming back into the guides as you land a fish, is that the loop connecters and knots can get caught in the tip. And I've had fish decide to take another good run after that had happened, and broken off - because there was no more drag to give.

Dont use a loop connector. I did for years and then switched and it has been so much better and I can use leaders that are actually longer than the rod im fishing

 

[dryflyguy]

Yeah - I've tried just nail knotting my leader to the line
But a nail knot can get hung up in the tip also

 

[BrookieBuster101]

well there is always gonna be a little bit of friction. Ive got two solutions for that though.
One is Scientific Angler Mastery Series fly line. They have a loop built in and I have just tied an improved clinch knot from the butt of my leader to that loop. Its pretty streamline.

The other thing is this glue that is hardened with a UV light. I cannot remember what it is called but I know guys that coat all of their knots with the stuff.

Edit: I found it. Its called UV Knot Sence by loon. I plan on getting some in time but at the moment I dont really need it.

 

[dryflyguy]

Yeah, I bought a ridge line rather recently that has that nice welded loop on it - and it does go through the guides nicely

 

[Chaz]

I recently bought a SA line with the loop built in for the setup I use for brookie fishing, I love it. Nothing gets caught.

 

[pcray1231]

I don't have a problem with my blood knots getting caught in the guides, part of that is a function of how close you trim your tag ends, when I have a "rough knot" thats usually the culprit. Get good nippers and you can get em really close.

nor do I have a problem with blood knots breaking. The other knots tend to kink on me, perhaps I just need practice. But my blood knots are good and straight and the line usually breaks before the knot. Even then, I almost never break a line unintentionally. It's almost always a case where I'm snagged in a place I can't get to and I intentionally break it. It's been years since a fish broke me off.

I'm very happy with my hand tied leaders. It's simply adds versatility, and in fishing with 1000 new situations, versatility is good.

Thinking about trying out furled though.

I do have the issues with the nail knot hanging up on the tip-top. With the length of leaders I use, I can land fish just fine while keeping some fly line off the tip (with a high lift of the rod like dryflyguy states). Where it's a problem is when you secure the hook to the keeper to walk. It really sucks on the small streams when you're covering water. It's non-stop wrestling with that problem. Maybe I oughta give welded loops a shot...

 

[gfen]

pcray1231 wrote:
Maybe I oughta give welded loops a shot...

Not much better.

 

[sandfly]

These are the formulas i use. Developed over 30 years.

 

[stevehalupka]

jdaddy wrote:
I have all but given up on hand tied leaders and think I will try furl or go back to extruded tapered knotless leaders. A lot of folks talk about blood knots and how they form a neat little barrel and go right through the guides. I have not found that to be the case. Additionally, I believe the logic that Eric Stroup puts forth in his book that store bought leaders are inconsistent and have variance resulting in inferior performance is simply flawed. 10 leaders off the machine are going to be more consistent than 10 hand tied leaders. Additionally, the taper is much more even, thus I have to think that transfer of energy is greater. I am glad I learned to tie my own, as it will allow me to rebuild store bought leaders.

Can the Borger leader length sections simply be reduced, kind of like what someone said above? That would involve a lot less knots for ya, thus giving more room for repair.

can't agree more...

I know some of your local walmart's do not carry fairplay's tapered, but they are only 1.96. I'm sure they carry them online. 10 a year and add 3 feet right out of the package for an 10.5 ft. leader, when it gets down to a foot, add another 3 feet. After this, clip original knot and do it all over. They last for many trips. My friends all use chameleon and maxima and I find the leaders to be junk.

Great for chrome, but I want a smooth taper as j says for maximum transference. My local shop also carries beartooth mono and flouro which i would compare to rio power and flouroflex and it is much cheaper.

If any of you out east can't find it and would like to try a spool throw me a pm. Woody (shop owner) will ship a few spools to you.

I keep my old butt sections of this when it gets to about 2x and then just tie on a section of 4 or 5 for wilds making a 7.5 ft. leader. I like to use smaller flies on freestone wild streams oppose to the larger flies. These fish do tend to be leader shy as well.

Furled is great for high water though and I always have one for those times.

 

[JackM]

I'm with Halupki and Gfen. Learn to tie leaders and experiment with tapers. Then realize that the extruded leader, down to about 3X is the best butt to mid-section taper you can buy or make for the money. Then design the remaining leader as to length and taper to meet your specific situations-- as Steve mentioned, sometimes four feet of straight line is perfect for nymph and streamer fishing. Other times a 9", 6", 30" taper works well at the end. Other times, for slack line, make the middle-third of the final hand-tied taper longer to disipate energy and create slack.

You dont have to worry about the knots, because your first 6-8 feet of leader from the butt is completely smooth. Only the final 3rd or so will have knots.