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troutbert
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That "doesn't follow" as the logic wonks say.
Small fertile freestone brown trout population: size structure, abundance
That "doesn't follow" as the logic wonks say.
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troutbert
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Are brown trout populations increasing in PA?
If you think that they are, what is that based on?
Is there really info available that shows that brown trout populations are increasing in PA?
wildtrout2
Well-known member
Well Dwight, I can say for sure it is taking place on at least one stream that I know of specifically. I've been fishing a particular Class A wild brook trout stream since 2009, and only caught natives until I caught a wild tiger trout in 2010. I then fished for another 6 years before catching my first wild brown in this stream. At least it explained the tiger! I have caught about 4 or 5 wild browns since, so I can only expect their numbers to increase.
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troutbert
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It seems to me that brown trout populations are decreasing in some places, such as upper Kettle Creek, Cross Fork Creek, Hammersley Fork, and the upper part of Slate Run, and its trib Francis Branch.
Anyone else notice this, or am I imagining things? Does anyone know if stream surveys show this?
Anyone else notice this, or am I imagining things? Does anyone know if stream surveys show this?
jifigz
Well-known member
Can I prove this? No, I cannot. Can I estimate and judge this myself and make this claim without solid evidence and feel good about it? Yes, and I will and stand by it. Why do I think that they are increasing? Cleaner water than Pennsylvania used to have, less angling harvest, less fishing in general. I mean brown trout are EVERYWHERE in my part of the stafe.
And now I will offer you a rebuttal. Can you offer me any evidence that they aren't increasing? Sure, you all ready offered your opinion on a very small set of streams, but how about real evidence?
And now I will offer you a rebuttal. Can you offer me any evidence that they aren't increasing? Sure, you all ready offered your opinion on a very small set of streams, but how about real evidence?
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Mike
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It’s not stocked and the wild trout are thriving? What was this referencing?
Anyway, the quick responses to most of your questions and then a bit of commentary in response to Troutbert re wild BT expansion:
Other than invertebrates, the forage base is low densities of dace, chubs, young suckers.
Riparian ownership: private (no public land)
Freestone: total alkalinities of 0-69 mg/l. This stream is 50 mg/l. Limestoners arguably start at 70 mg/l with those that flow from dolomitic limestone geology as opposed to carbonate limestone, which produces higher total alkalinities. Class A Cooks Ck is a dolomitic limestoner, for example.
No STP's in drainage, some ag.
Ages: possibly ages 3+ to 4+ at 12", posssibly age 4+ or 5+ at 15". The +'s mean growth during the growing season that we are presently in.
As for BT populations expanding, they absolutely are and have been in at least a downstream direction on many streams as the streams get cooler overall because of riparian vegetation growth. This is common in SE Pa., for example. Just surveyed a stream like that... we are now seeing the lower limit of wild brown trout reproduction 2.6 miles downstream from where the downstream limit was 9 yrs ago. I have also seen substantive stream sections go from no wild trout to Class A wild BT in as few as 7-8 yrs. Plus we are seeing Class A and Class A equivalent populations appear over longer periods of time as well. And let's not forget recovering mining degraded streams where miles of wild trout water, both BT and ST, are appearing.
Additionally, a number of stocked BT streams have eventually seen their wild BT populations expand to Class A equivalent biomasses and then be removed from the stocking program as a result. Within my region we're in the process of doing that with Leibs Ck, York Co and not too long ago did the same with Blymire Hollow Run, York Co. Over the years that also happened in a part of Codorus Ck, a part of Conowingo Ck, W Br Perkiomen Ck (although it became posted at the same time), and it was on the way to happening on Valley Ck before it was removed from the stocking program due to PCBs in fish flesh.
Anyway, the quick responses to most of your questions and then a bit of commentary in response to Troutbert re wild BT expansion:
Other than invertebrates, the forage base is low densities of dace, chubs, young suckers.
Riparian ownership: private (no public land)
Freestone: total alkalinities of 0-69 mg/l. This stream is 50 mg/l. Limestoners arguably start at 70 mg/l with those that flow from dolomitic limestone geology as opposed to carbonate limestone, which produces higher total alkalinities. Class A Cooks Ck is a dolomitic limestoner, for example.
No STP's in drainage, some ag.
Ages: possibly ages 3+ to 4+ at 12", posssibly age 4+ or 5+ at 15". The +'s mean growth during the growing season that we are presently in.
As for BT populations expanding, they absolutely are and have been in at least a downstream direction on many streams as the streams get cooler overall because of riparian vegetation growth. This is common in SE Pa., for example. Just surveyed a stream like that... we are now seeing the lower limit of wild brown trout reproduction 2.6 miles downstream from where the downstream limit was 9 yrs ago. I have also seen substantive stream sections go from no wild trout to Class A wild BT in as few as 7-8 yrs. Plus we are seeing Class A and Class A equivalent populations appear over longer periods of time as well. And let's not forget recovering mining degraded streams where miles of wild trout water, both BT and ST, are appearing.
Additionally, a number of stocked BT streams have eventually seen their wild BT populations expand to Class A equivalent biomasses and then be removed from the stocking program as a result. Within my region we're in the process of doing that with Leibs Ck, York Co and not too long ago did the same with Blymire Hollow Run, York Co. Over the years that also happened in a part of Codorus Ck, a part of Conowingo Ck, W Br Perkiomen Ck (although it became posted at the same time), and it was on the way to happening on Valley Ck before it was removed from the stocking program due to PCBs in fish flesh.
salvelinusfontinalis
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Mike's comments here are spot on.
Just look at the Lackawaana River.
Brown trout are expanding everywhere
Just look at the Lackawaana River.
Brown trout are expanding everywhere
wildtrout2
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I'm pretty sure artistickid was being sarcastic.
FarmerDave
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Yea, and so was I about the STPs... well, sort of joking.
wildtrout2
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I thought you were referencing that West Virginia toilet with all the wild trout? :-D
FarmerDave
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That is why I said sort of joking.;-)
I wouldn't want to fish either.
TroutTracker
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Kind of a random question. Does anyone have the old Class A list saved that listed the alkalinity of the streams? Not sure why this was removed but I would love to get my hands on the old list.
The_Sasquatch
Well-known member
Notice it? I guess. Over the past year in particular, I would say my outings on upper Kettle (north of 44) proved to be rich ST territory. My last 3 outings on Cross Fork were heavily in favor of ST, though the "trophy fish" of each outing obviously were chunky browns. The last time I was on Hammersley (June of 2017) one brown was caught in the lowest stretch, from then on, all ST. Many of these outings were "double digit" days on the stream (I lose count after 10...but I just say that to say, we were catching a lot of trout)
I'm fine with this shift towards native species, particularly considering many of the ST caught on these streams were above "legal" size.
But here's the thing. When I go on streams like this and I'm catching an abundance of ST, I also consider that I am perhaps fishing in conditions that favor ST, or am using tactics (usually dries, occasionally with a dropper, but hardly ever w/ streamers/buggers) that will produce more ST than BT catch rates.
So I don't know that browns are decreasing, I just know I don't catch as many browns.
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
Read above^
No doubt wild brown trout and as well as native brookies are expanding.
I don't want to insult Mike and say he's "old"....but he's been at this for decades and with "boots in the stream", at least in SE PA. I can't think of anyone with more first-hand knowledge of how things are changing, or progressing if you will, in PA.
The one thing I do not hear mentioned very often is the diminished acid rain problem in PA, which has been mitigated by more and more coal burning plants being scrapped.
Anyway, I've seen what Mike describes first-hand as an angler in the area. Many streams marginal streams in the 70's and 80's now support wild trout as well wild trout have increased in population and expanded their range in many streams
The other side of the coin are streams like the Little Lehigh and some other wild trout streams in and around the Lehigh Valley. They were once good quality wild streams that have declined, mostly attributed to development along the watershed.
But overall the trend for wild trout is positive by most accounts.
Swattie87
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tb - I think Squatch touched on this a little too...In my experience with streams that hold both Brookies and Browns, and aren't dominated by one or the other, conditions make a big difference in your catch ratio between the species. Fishing the same stream, including some of the ones you mention above, I've had days where I've caught 90% Browns when the water is up and off color a little. On days when the water is lower and clear I catch less fish in general, but what I do catch is 90%+ Brookies. I think this has to do with how Brookies and Browns evolved differently in terms of how and when they feed. Brookies are constant nibblers at every opportunity, where Browns are bingers when conditions are right. Have you been fishing up there more often recently in conditions that favor catching Brookies?
My general opinion is that little has changed. I agree the upper portion of Kettle's main stem does seem to have mostly Brookies, though there are some Browns...I tangled with a nice one in the pool at the Germania Branch confluence a couple years ago. I think upper Kettle (above Little Kettle confluence) is still slightly more acidic than most of Kettle's larger tribs, so I think that may be why there's more Brookies up there - Brookies tolerate acidic water better than Browns. Little Kettle/Cross Fork/Hammersley seem to have roughly an even mix of Brookies/Browns IMO if you average out my days on them to account for different conditions.
wildtrout2
Well-known member
Yes, I have the 2010 Class A list with the alkalinity numbers, but not "saved", as it's a physical copy that I printed. Sorry.
