Sighters / indicator mono / nylon

[mute]

So I'm in a predicament. Like mostly everything, you start out with something common, simple even. Youre mending a fly line with an indicator on it trying to keep drag out of the equation.

Then you find yourself taking the Indy off and figuring out how to detect strikes without it. Next thing you know you're swapping that fly line for a euro nymphing line in order to better handle sag and that tight line technique.

Next you realize you're building your first tight lining leader formula using maxima chameleon, multi colored sighters, tippet rings and more. That was me. I used a traditional 20lb tapered down to 12lb maxima chameleon leader formula with a SA trib color sighter baked in for a year or so. Then experimenting with some different materials like OPST Lazer line for it's more fly line like feel and even changing out the SA sighter for my own built connection of materials like colored maxima and Amnesia mono.

I immediately loved the change in sighter material as the SA seemed spongy and too loose compared to the more taught and less giving amnesia. That was all well and good and became my new setup for the next year or so. That was until I dared to try something new again.

This is where I got into micro leader formulas and tried to keep it even more simple, less connections, not even a need for any taper built into the formula. That looked like Adams euro mono line to a tippet ring and the needed length of tippet. But what about the sighter? Because the Adams mono is white, you can paint your sighter on to it. That's right, you heard me correctly. Meaning the only connection that ever really sees the guides 99% of the time is a single tippet ring. Compared to the previous rigs mentioned above which involved the same tippet ring, but then 2 or 3 other connections as well(blood knots for amnesia sighter and another tippet ring or blood knot for the taper being integrated into the rig in the form of maxima mono).

I immediately fell in love with it. Not only for the micro diameter benefits, but it's simplicity and lack of anything going through the guides. The sighters(Sakura Permanent Markers) neon properties are amazing as well. Brighter then the SA/Rio and Amnesia setups I used previously.

The problem? It's not really permanent. Now it would be one thing if it would last an all day outing, as it only takes a minute to reapply. But it barely gets 100 casts, even when being diligent and ensuring the sighter never touches the water. Droplets and splashes are inevitable however, and that's where it starts to suck

Enough that I need to find an alternative. Once you realize you can take that extra sighter connection out of the equation and therefore the guides, it's like taking the condom of... Well I'll keep it PG. But you get my drift(pun intended).

So here comes my questions for hopefully the guys that have already experimented with all this. I was thinking of finding some other markers, I know sharpie makes a few florescent style hi-viz colors. However even if it stays on the line, I'm not sure if it'll really pop like the Sakura chemistry does. I'm telling myself if I have to go back to a sighter connection I will. It will just be bittersweet. On that front, I've only every dangled with the SA, Rio and like I mentioned, Amnesia mono stuff. There's some stuff that's peaking my interest like this Soldarini sighter stuff, Umpqua PerformX, and this Pierre Sempe product.

Has anyone messed with any of them? Can you relate it all to a stiffer more taunt material or more of a spaghetti in the wind kind of feel?


Pics, those colors though... Black, white , yellow, orange, pink... Mmmmm tasty!

 

[afishinado]

So I'm in a predicament. Like mostly everything, you start out with something common, simple even. Youre mending a fly line with an indicator on it trying to keep drag out of the equation.

Then you find yourself taking the Indy off and figuring out how to detect strikes without it. Next thing you know you're swapping that fly line for a euro nymphing line in order to better handle sag and that tight line technique.

Next you realize you're building your first tight lining leader formula using maxima chameleon, multi colored sighters, tippet rings and more. That was me. I used a traditional 20lb tapered down to 12lb maxima chameleon leader formula with a SA trib color sighter baked in for a year or so. Then experimenting with some different materials like OPST Lazer line for it's more fly line like feel and even changing out the SA sighter for my own built connection of materials like colored maxima and Amnesia mono.

I immediately loved the change in sighter material as the SA seemed spongy and too loose compared to the more taught and less giving amnesia. That was all well and good and became my new setup for the next year or so. That was until I dared to try something new again.

This is where I got into micro leader formulas and tried to keep it even more simple, less connections, not even a need for any taper built into the formula. That looked like Adams euro mono line to a tippet ring and the needed length of tippet. But what about the sighter? Because the Adams mono is white, you can paint your sighter on to it. That's right, you heard me correctly. Meaning the only connection that ever really sees the guides 99% of the time is a single tippet ring. Compared to the previous rigs mentioned above which involved the same tippet ring, but then 2 or 3 other connections as well(blood knots for amnesia sighter and another tippet ring or blood knot for the taper being integrated into the rig in the form of maxima mono).

I immediately fell in love with it. Not only for the micro diameter benefits, but it's simplicity and lack of anything going through the guides. The sighters(Sakura Permanent Markers) neon properties are amazing as well. Brighter then the SA/Rio and Amnesia setups I used previously.

The problem? It's not really permanent. Now it would be one thing if it would last an all day outing, as it only takes a minute to reapply. But it barely gets 100 casts, even when being diligent and ensuring the sighter never touches the water. Droplets and splashes are inevitable however, and that's where it starts to suck

Enough that I need to find an alternative. Once you realize you can take that extra sighter connection out of the equation and therefore the guides, it's like taking the condom of... Well I'll keep it PG. But you get my drift(pun intended).

So here comes my questions for hopefully the guys that have already experimented with all this. I was thinking of finding some other markers, I know sharpie makes a few florescent style hi-viz colors. However even if it stays on the line, I'm not sure if it'll really pop like the Sakura chemistry does. I'm telling myself if I have to go back to a sighter connection I will. It will just be bittersweet. On that front, I've only every dangled with the SA, Rio and like I mentioned, Amnesia mono stuff. There's some stuff that's peaking my interest like this Soldarini sighter stuff, Umpqua PerformX, and this Pierre Sempe product.

Has anyone messed with any of them? Can you relate it all to a stiffer more taunt material or more of a spaghetti in the wind kind of feel?


Pics, those colors though... Black, white , yellow, orange, pink... Mmmmm tasty!

Hey Mute,

Interesting thread/post.

Try Loon Strike Putty on your sighter. Don't make into a football, just dirty up the line with it to add some color.

Weighs next to nothing , stays on pretty good and is really visible.

Keep on messing around, you are sure to find a system the works best for you.

Good fishing...........

 

[coyoterahn]

Mute, You may want to try a short tag of fluorescent green or orange fly line backing. Weigh’s next to nothing and the visibility is pretty good.

 

[mute]

Hey Mute,

Interesting thread/post.

Try Loon Strike Putty on your sighter. Don't make into a football, just dirty up the line with it to add some color.

Weighs next to nothing , stays on pretty good and is really visible.

Keep on messing around, you are sure to find a system the works best for you.

Good fishing...........

interesting though. I will have to give that a try and see how it does. Traditionally thinking about its intended purpose of a floating indicator in a clump, i can see what u mean just by getting enough of it present throughout a section of line. Will report back my thoughts after use.

 

[mute]

Mute, You may want to try a short tag of fluorescent green or orange fly line backing. Weigh’s next to nothing and the visibility is pretty good.

Ahhh, the good ole backing barrel w/ optional tag. Yup i do use them as a pop point but would like to still have a 3ft section of various color before the tippet start.

 

[CRB]

Perhaps the line dressing is what is causing your problems.

 

[Dubhlaine]

I keep it very simple just use Pezon & Michel (similar to Pierre Sempe I'm told) 0.18mm (about 4x) 25- 30ft and I blood knot a different color or actual by-colour sighter 0.18 or 0.16 to a tippet ring or just bloodknot some 5x floro to the sighter. I can drop down to 6x or 7x from that depending on conditions. The big advantage of the Pezon Michel is how lightweight and supple it is allowing small 2m beads to be cast 20-30ft fairly easily.

 

[mute]

Perhaps the line dressing is what is causing your problems.

Line dressing? What problems?

 

[Drifly]

Have you ever heard of anyone using colored grease makeup sticks (face painting). These look like a chap-stick, many are water repellent and come in great sighter colors. You simply rub it onto your leader/ tippet section depending on depth of water your fishing if you want to change depths simply wipe it off with a glass cleaner wipe and reapply where needed. Works well.

 

[Broodstock]

I’m a fan of a backing barrel. Also I wonder why you are bringing the sighter into the tiptop. I run some pretty long tippet on double or even triple nymph rigs, but I rarely have to bring my sighter into the tiptop. I usually fish with a 10-10 and that extra length helps run longer tippet sections without having sighter issues. Also how long is your sighter section? I typically use a short section, perhaps 24” max.

 

[globug15]

From my experience, all of the opaque nylons will be more supple. Brand makes little difference when you're comparing these especially in the 2-4x and beyond diameters.

I prefer a stiffer running line of maxima or amnesia for the butt and a softer transition of dyed nylon to the tippet. I feel that gives me just enough wiggle room to manipulate my casts and drifts. Using opaque nylon the full length of your butt section is a poor choice for my casting style.

Depending on the conditions, time of year, or weight, I like to use heavier or lighter butt sections.

When you start to split hairs with this style of fishing and are on the water a lot under varying conditions, which it sounds you currently are, you start discovering the trade offs for each. For instance, I do not want an ultralight setup when I know I'll primarily be fishing drop shot, need to put on an indicator, or feel the urge to chuck a streamer. At the same time, I know when the water drops, fishing pressure increases, and fish are on smaller bugs, then I'll gravitate more to an ultralight system.

Also, I hate all these pink indicator tippets on the market. My favorite is Umpqua yellow/red. It's the most like the Jan Siman material my eyes became accustomed to years ago.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

hey, mute. I would not recommend backing as it will eventually absorb water.

Have you ever just spooled on the entire 30 yards of SA sighter or sighter of your preference? I find that makes a very decent micro leader in 3X, and you can go up to 2X and 0X as needed based on time of year, size of bugs, etc.

Probably just lazy, but I stopped building leaders from different size Maxima, etc, a couple years ago and just go with a straight shot of 30-40 yards to a sighter. After reading George Daniel's recent book, it sounds like he's moved to the same thing (though his reasons were not laziness and had very scientific reasons). Either way, I find few situations where I need to taper from 10' of 20 lb, down to 10' of 15 lb, and so on.

 

[jifigz]

hey, mute. I would not recommend backing as it will eventually absorb water.

Have you ever just spooled on the entire 30 yards of SA sighter or sighter of your preference? I find that makes a very decent micro leader in 3X, and you can go up to 2X and 0X as needed based on time of year, size of bugs, etc.

Probably just lazy, but I stopped building leaders from different size Maxima, etc, a couple years ago and just go with a straight shot of 30-40 yards to a sighter. After reading George Daniel's recent book, it sounds like he's moved to the same thing (though his reasons were not laziness and had very scientific reasons). Either way, I find few situations where I need to taper from 10' of 20 lb, down to 10' of 15 lb, and so on.

Hey Nymph-Wristed, so what is the point of such a long transition phase in those leaders if they are 10 feet? I just build my first euro rig/mono rig/whatever we want to call it, and I used 20lb maxima and then about 2 feet of both 15 lb maxima and 10 lb gold stren. From the gold Stren I ran a section of 4x SA sighter material to a tippet ring and then my tippet. With such long sections, like 10 feet long, I can't imagine the taper would really matter much, would it?

I am not sure I will ever become a hardcore mono-rig guy, but I am at least wanting to experiment a bit on some of the larger streams.

Sorry, not trying to derail Mute's thread. I am a baby novice at the mono rig stuff.

 

[mute]

Have you ever heard of anyone using colored grease makeup sticks (face painting). These look like a chap-stick, many are water repellent and come in great sighter colors. You simply rub it onto your leader/ tippet section depending on depth of water your fishing if you want to change depths simply wipe it off with a glass cleaner wipe and reapply where needed. Works well.

Skafers wax is usually what's used with that concept in mind. But from what I gather that type of stuff seems to melt off in the warmer spring/summer times as opposed to colder months. That's where the Sakura markers do work a bit better. But interesting idea with the face painting sticks specifically. Have u had any runny like experiences of it on the linen during warmer days?

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Hey Nymph-Wristed, so what is the point of such a long transition phase in those leaders if they are 10 feet? I just build my first euro rig/mono rig/whatever we want to call it, and I used 20lb maxima and then about 2 feet of both 15 lb maxima and 10 lb gold stren. From the gold Stren I ran a section of 4x SA sighter material to a tippet ring and then my tippet. With such long sections, like 10 feet long, I can't imagine the taper would really matter much, would it?

I am not sure I will ever become a hardcore mono-rig guy, but I am at least wanting to experiment a bit on some of the larger streams.

Sorry, not trying to derail Mute's thread. I am a baby novice at the mono rig stuff.

Sorry, Matt, jifigz started it not me. I am sure you can weigh in too...

I think the taper was an old idea that does not have a real practical use most of the time. Leaders have always been tapered, you know. Minus the knots every 10-12 feet, casting is closer to that of a fly line when you need to make a longer cast on big water.

You would be surprised how well you can cast with a straight shot of mono, however. Water load is your friend, or a few ugly false casts that are just slower but no less effective over time. Mono shoots through the guides really well too, except in the rain.

But, a 20lb butt section is going to sag just like a fly line and pull small bugs back towards you and create drag in the current. I use a taper with heavy butt section on big water with 5mm jigged bugger (stoneflies in the winter) or when I know I will need a bobber to reach over current to the soft water on the other side in higher flows. In the cold or in gloves, 20 or 15 lb Maxima you can catch in gloves, not unlike the FIPS euro lines, which are really good in winter for that reason alone (or only in my opinion).

For the average small to medium size stream, I have continued to simplify over time. You can read stuff and never buck convention from publications and fly shops, or you can just try stuff that works for you. Time on the water, as many a wise man has said....

My latest "formula" for small streams is 30 yards of Trilene XT Extra Tough (9.99 for 300 yards) in 10 or 12 lb test to a length of 2 or 3X sighter attached with a blood knot, to a tippet ring. Then add whatever size tippet you prefer for the conditions.

I am aware of dudes who use the Suffix gold too. That is limp, but limp has its place when fishing more than a rod length or two from you also.

 

[mute]

I’m a fan of a backing barrel. Also I wonder why you are bringing the sighter into the tiptop. I run some pretty long tippet on double or even triple nymph rigs, but I rarely have to bring my sighter into the tiptop. I usually fish with a 10-10 and that extra length helps run longer tippet sections without having sighter issues. Also how long is your sighter section? I typically use a short section, perhaps 24” max.

Sighter is only 2-3ft max. I agree once you're setup on the water there's really no use case for the sighter to tippet connection to ever come through the rod tip. However sometimes when you're in a tunnel of tight trees, and you are trying to just dip 2 ft of tippet in a hole around a tree, the sighter will be all the way up into the rod sections of you're planning on successfully setting that hook. Rare, but happens.

 

[Broodstock]

Sighter is only 2-3ft max. I agree once you're setup on the water there's really no use case for the sighter to tippet connection to ever come through the rod tip. However sometimes when you're in a tunnel of tight trees, and you are trying to just dip 2 ft of tippet in a hole around a tree, the sighter will be all the way up into the rod sections of you're planning on successfully setting that hook. Rare, but happens.

I agree with the small stream stuff. A good blood knot should pass through almost all guides with ease. When I was first starting out I lost a good fish at the net by using the loop to loop leader to line connection and that got hung up and popped the tippet. Went to thin knots and always check that they clear under tension. Never looked back.

 

[mute]

From my experience, all of the opaque nylons will be more supple. Brand makes little difference when you're comparing these especially in the 2-4x and beyond diameters.

I prefer a stiffer running line of maxima or amnesia for the butt and a softer transition of dyed nylon to the tippet. I feel that gives me just enough wiggle room to manipulate my casts and drifts. Using opaque nylon the full length of your butt section is a poor choice for my casting style.

Depending on the conditions, time of year, or weight, I like to use heavier or lighter butt sections.

When you start to split hairs with this style of fishing and are on the water a lot under varying conditions, which it sounds you currently are, you start discovering the trade offs for each. For instance, I do not want an ultralight setup when I know I'll primarily be fishing drop shot, need to put on an indicator, or feel the urge to chuck a streamer. At the same time, I know when the water drops, fishing pressure increases, and fish are on smaller bugs, then I'll gravitate more to an ultralight system.

Also, I hate all these pink indicator tippets on the market. My favorite is Umpqua yellow/red. It's the most like the Jan Siman material my eyes became accustomed to years ago.

Good points. Although even on a .250mm mono setup that is rated for ~14lb I dont have much problem casting 2mm tungsten beaded nymphs or the complete opposite side of the spectrum with dual 5mm articulated streamers. I do however rarely ever explicitly dry fly fish.

hey, mute. I would not recommend backing as it will eventually absorb water.

Have you ever just spooled on the entire 30 yards of SA sighter or sighter of your preference? I find that makes a very decent micro leader in 3X, and you can go up to 2X and 0X as needed based on time of year, size of bugs, etc.

Probably just lazy, but I stopped building leaders from different size Maxima, etc, a couple years ago and just go with a straight shot of 30-40 yards to a sighter. After reading George Daniel's recent book, it sounds like he's moved to the same thing (though his reasons were not laziness and had very scientific reasons). Either way, I find few situations where I need to taper from 10' of 20 lb, down to 10' of 15 lb, and so on.

Now that's an interesting concept I've never thought of. I would think the sighter material would be way too supple to use in its entirety as the entire leader\butt\etc. I: feel like it would be like casting a string on a stick no?

I'm with you, while I can understand the mechanics on tapering something down in order to help take that inertia and energy and turn it over, I have in problems casting the bugs I use on a level line. Adams Mono is my choice, feels better then Maxima imo, i feel like it coils less, etc etc. Bonus point that its white\clear and can have a sighter painted on it depending if you can tolerate its life time before needing to reapply.

Sorry, Matt, jifigz started it not me. I am sure you can weigh in too...

I think the taper was an old idea that does not have a real practical use most of the time. Leaders have always been tapered, you know. Minus the knots every 10-12 feet, casting is closer to that of a fly line when you need to make a longer cast on big water.

You would be surprised how well you can cast with a straight shot of mono, however. Water load is your friend, or a few ugly false casts that are just slower but no less effective over time. Mono shoots through the guides really well too, except in the rain.

But, a 20lb butt section is going to sag just like a fly line and pull small bugs back towards you and create drag in the current. I use a taper with heavy butt section on big water with 5mm jigged bugger (stoneflies in the winter) or when I know I will need a bobber to reach over current to the soft water on the other side in higher flows. In the cold or in gloves, 20 or 15 lb Maxima you can catch in gloves, not unlike the FIPS euro lines, which are really good in winter for that reason alone (or only in my opinion).

For the average small to medium size stream, I have continued to simplify over time. You can read stuff and never buck convention from publications and fly shops, or you can just try stuff that works for you. Time on the water, as many a wise man has said....

My latest "formula" for small streams is 30 yards of Trilene XT Extra Tough (9.99 for 300 yards) in 10 or 12 lb test to a length of 2 or 3X sighter attached with a blood knot, to a tippet ring. Then add whatever size tippet you prefer for the conditions.

I am aware of dudes who use the Suffix gold too. That is limp, but limp has its place when fishing more than a rod length or two from you also.

Haha, no worries. I pretty much agree with everything being said here. I would think the only thing taper would really play a part in would be when trying to use dries when you're looking for ultimate turn over efficiency.

When I think tight lining leader formulas I think of Troutbitten selling the Maxima side, Dave Rothrack on Stren (https://www.therantingangler.com/2022/02/dave-rothrocks-approach-to-fishing.html) and various others promoting their master line type from Amnesia to Suffix neon\fire.

It was said best here though, trying all the pros and cons of each product and its own chemistry yourself will only tell you which one you agree with the most and allows your style of fishing to be the most efficient.

And with that, I got a little assortment coming to commence the continued experimentation. If anyone wants to try any of these out lmk and ill mail you some, i clearly wont needs hundreds and hundreds of meters of this stuff...

 

[Drifly]

Skafers wax is usually what's used with that concept in mind. But from what I gather that type of stuff seems to melt off in the warmer spring/summer times as opposed to colder months. That's where the Sakura markers do work a bit better. But interesting idea with the face painting sticks specifically. Have u had any runny like experiences of it on the linen during warmer days?

No dripping at all with the sticks, I’m not familiar with the markers but can it be removed after you apply it? When you say linen are you talking about applying to a backing sighter? Cause if so with the grease paint u apply to right to tippet or leader so basically anywhere applied becomes a sighter. I have used looped backing tight on a dowel then marked down the side with a waterproof marker when unraveled it becomes candy caned which also is ok. But after fishing all these methods I’ve tried the one I stuck with is the mono slinky, once use to it it’s so super sensitive it detects everything. IMO of course everyone’s style can be a bit different.

 

[mute]

No dripping at all with the sticks, I’m not familiar with the markers but can it be removed after you apply it? When you say linen are you talking about applying to a backing sighter? Cause if so with the grease paint u apply to right to tippet or leader so basically anywhere applied becomes a sighter. I have used looped backing tight on a dowel then marked down the side with a waterproof marker when unraveled it becomes candy caned which also is ok. But after fishing all these methods I’ve tried the one I stuck with is the mono slinky, once use to it it’s so super sensitive it detects everything. IMO of course everyone’s style can be a bit different.

Yes you can remove it. Its "permanent" labeled and may very well be more "permanent" on different surfaces. But all you need is some rubbing alcohol or a mr clean magic eraser and just put the line through it with friction for it to rub off.

You can apply this stuff to raw tippet or any sort of mono line. The benefit of using Adams Mono line for your entire leader is the fact its clear\white. So the colors go on more vibrant then say trying to color a dakr red Maxima Chameleon line.

Raw White mono coming off reel. 5 diff colors painted on it in my hand.