Regulations Question

[jifigz]

Someone please clarify. I am thinking of Kish Creek (Mifflin County) specifically when asking this question but I am sure that it applies to several other streams in the state as well. Kish has a 2.5 or 3 mile stretch of Class A water that is bounded both upstream and downstream by approved-trout water. Now the regulations, to the best of my knowledge, used to state that all fishing on approved-trout water and all water downstream of the approved trout water were off limits from March 1 till the opening day. The regulations currently on the PFBC website read as such:

"Approved Trout waters are closed to fishing from March 1 to the opening day of the regular trout season in April, unless included in the Regional Opening Day of Trout Season Program or Approved Trout Waters Open to Year Round Fishing Program."

Notice the old word downstream is missing.

Under the typical table layout of regulations I see there is a specific section for the Extended Season which talks specifically about Class A streams which lists fishing allowed from Jan 1 to February 28 with Catch and Release only...it does not talk about March 1 to the opening day. Now, I am quite sure that Class A waters are open to year round catch and release fishing, but what about sections such as Kish which are bounded by stocked sections? I have been harassed before by passers-by while I was fishing the Class A section of Kish during the "closed/stocking season." What's the deal?

 

[BrookieChaser]

If you're not sure, and not willing to risk it, call your local fish warden to clarify.

I don't think "I was told on an internet forum I can fish here" is a valid excuse to a warden.

 

[jifigz]

Well, I wouldn't use that as my excuse..I would use the fact that the word downstream is missing from the wording...which means that it should be okay. You can't be cited for something unless it is written exactly forbidding your actions. If you are cited, well then that is where legal action often comes into play and things change (I am not saying I would pursue that, but others would and those situations are what bring about change and a firm ruling, either positive or negative.)

http://fishandboat.com/images/pages/qa/trout/year_round.htm

I could pull that up and use that as proof of fishing being allowed in Class A's year round, so..I guess it is legal.

BrookieChaser wrote:
If you're not sure, and not willing to risk it, call your local fish warden to clarify.

I don't think "I was told on an internet forum I can fish here" is a valid excuse to a warden.

 

[BrookieChaser]

jifigz wrote:
Someone please clarify.

So you weren't asking for internet input?

 

[jifigz]

BrookieChaser wrote:

jifigz wrote:
Someone please clarify.

So you weren't asking for internet input?

Absolutely I was. I will still call and ask a WCO for further clarification. Just seeking others' opinions to see what they would assume. I assume that it is legal and within the boundaries and if many others also assumed this then it would reaffirm my original thought. I just thought it peculiar that that very specific word was missing this year...

 

[Fishidiot]

This topic gets discussed pretty much every winter and the answer to the question: "Where can I fish during closed season?" remains unclear. You are correct that "downstream" disappeared from the reg, probably because "downstream" is undefined. This word was removed awhile back, maybe a couple years(?).

As far as the situation you descibe with Class A and ATW sections in the same stream....if it were me, I'd fish the Class A section (just make darn sure you know where the borders are and don't walk along the ATW sections with your rod). Of course, you can't keep any trout.

Other folks will tell you the entire stream is closed due to the position of the ATWs. Personally, I'd fish the Class A....but just to be safe, I agree it wouldn't hurt to talk to the local fish WCO.

 

[pcray1231]

The regs still state that. The question from previous years is generally about unlisted streams (neither ATW nor class A).

Copied and pasted from the PFBC website:

Extended Season (approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters)
Jan. 1 through Feb. 28 and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31

And it lists a limit of 3, combined species, minimum size of 7", yada yada. But for Class A, there's also this nugget:

Extended Season (Class A wild trout stream sections)
Jan. 1 through Feb. 28 and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31
NO HARVEST - catch and immediate release only (no tournaments permitted)
Class A stream listing: fishandboat.com/classa.pdf

The area you are talking about is class A. The extended season for these streams have their own section, and it does list a season end date. So my (non-professional) take on it is, in class A sections:

Opening day - Sept. 7 - regular trout regs.
Sept. 8-Feb. 28 - C&R only
Feb. 28-opening day - NO FISHING

For unlisted streams:
If downstream of an ATW, they are included in the extended season, with a listed season end date, and thus fall under the ATW regs:
Opening day - Sept. 7 - regular trout regs.
Sept 8 - Feb. 28 - regular extended trout regs.
Feb. 28-opening day - No fishing

But if not downstream of any ATW's:
Opening day - Sept. 7 - regular trout regs.
Sept. 8-opening day - here's the confusion for me. Is it closed to fishing? Or C&R? I've seen unofficial verbiage, even from the PFBC, that it's C&R. That said, I read the actual reg book, and it just looks like to me since they are included in the regular season but not in any extended seasons, the season end date is simply Sept. 7.

And also note that the ATW's are listed. In some cases, limits are given. In others, they are not. If the whole stream is listed, even though the upper end may not be stocked and hold non-class A populations of trout, the wild trout sections are considered ATW's.

In any case, the only trout fishing you can do from Feb. 28-opening day is in special reg sections (which includes DHALO, C&R, FFO, etc. and even many areas are listed "ATW open year-round")

 

[BrookieChaser]

jifigz wrote:

Absolutely I was. I will still call and ask a WCO for further clarification. Just seeking others' opinions to see what they would assume. I assume that it is legal and within the boundaries and if many others also assumed this then it would reaffirm my original thought. I just thought it peculiar that that very specific word was missing this year...

The interpretation of the fish warden in the area is all that matters.

 

[jifigz]

BrookieChaser wrote:

jifigz wrote:

Absolutely I was. I will still call and ask a WCO for further clarification. Just seeking others' opinions to see what they would assume. I assume that it is legal and within the boundaries and if many others also assumed this then it would reaffirm my original thought. I just thought it peculiar that that very specific word was missing this year...

The interpretation of the fish warden in the area is all that matters.

That is really what it all comes down to...that particular WCO's opinion of the matter. I have had a few situations which I've came into contact with a WCO under various fishing situations...they were always very nice and respectful. One time I was fishing the river for Walleye with spinning and baitcasting gear and it was something like January 3. I had not yet purchased my license for the year and obviously the old one expired a few days before. Ultimately, they told me I was breaking the law and I acknowledged that I knew that and I reassured them I buy a license every year and fish a lot. Then they proceeded to say that I had some really nice gear and I was the only nut out fishing in this weather and that they believed me...they then basically told me to have a good day and have fun and to buy my license ASAP. They could have been sticklers about that as I was clearly in the wrong.

 

[Cold]

Also note that in some of these "hazy gray areas" the WCO's opinion is often the difference between wrong and right...or at the very least, between violation and not.

While spin fishing a DHALO many years ago, I encountered one who told me the stuff I was using was okay (trout magnets and other jig type stuff). Two or three days later a different guy was ready to cite me for using the trout magnets, as they were considered molded bait or some such by that guy.

Luckily, I specifically remembered the other guy's first name and description and I explained the situation, so he called the guy, who agreed with my story and he let me go.

 

[klingy]

From a Q&A section on the fish and boat site (Link):

Q & A
Year Round Trout Fishing

Question
I love to fish for wild trout in Class A streams. After reading several sources and talking to many people, Trout Unlimited members and PFBC staff, I'm totally confused. Is it or is it not legal to fish any Class A stream year round?

Answer
It is legal* to fish for trout in Class A trout streams year-round, with no kill beginning the day after Labor Day through the opening day of trout season the following year. The same holds true for wilderness trout streams. Of course, all other fishing regulations still apply.
Note that during the period after Labor Day through the following opening day of trout season, anglers must immediately release any trout they catch unharmed to the waters from which taken. Anglers also should check for special regulations applicable to particular waters.

The traditional trout season and creel limits are in place for "Approved Trout Waters," which basically means the water is stocked by the Commission or one of its Cooperative Nursery partners. To provide additional angling opportunities, there are a handful of approved trout waters that are open to year-round fishing.

Another option for year-round fishing is a special regulation area. There are dozens located throughout Pennsylvania that are open to year-round fishing. Note many of these are catch and release only, have tackle restrictions, etc. Consult the PA summary book or signs at the areas for specific regulations.

A number of special regulation areas are under Delayed Harvest Artificial Lures Only regulations. These areas are open to year-round fishing with no kill, except from one hour before sunrise on June 15 to one hour after sunset on Labor Day, when the daily creel limit is 3 trout (combined species) with a minimum size of 9 inches.

There is also a Wild Brook Trout Enhancement Program.

All these categories and regulations may seem a bit confusing, but it's really pretty simple:

Traditional trout season
Approved trout waters

Year-round trout fishing
Class A trout streams
Wilderness trout streams
Special regulation areas (includes delayed harvest)
Approved trout waters open to year-round fishing
Wild brook trout enhancement streams

* Those with a particular interest in regulatory interpretation may want a further explanation. Here it is: The season for taking trout from waters other than approved trout waters extends from opening day in April to midnight on Labor Day. During other times of the year, there is no season for trout on waters other than approved trout waters, certain special regulation waters and private waters that apply for and are made subject to the extended trout season under PFBC regulations (58 Pa. Code 65.26). The regulations establishing seasons, sizes and creel limits state that a fish taken out of season from waters where other fishing is lawful is not considered a violation if the fish is "immediately returned unharmed to the water from which it was taken." Thus, it is not a per se violation to catch a trout out of season on Class A wild trout waters as long strict catch-and-release fishing is practiced.

 

[jifigz]

Exactly Klingy....that is why I posted that link. It can't be anymore clear than that that fishing in Class A's is fine year round. The fact that the particular class A I referenced is downstream from stocked water blurs it a little, but I think that page on the PFBC page can't be argued with.

 

[klingy]

Yeah, their simplification of it is how I had always kind of read the regs. If its class A, it's open year round, regardless of location in relation to an ATW.

 

[BrooksAndHooks]

Fish away man! Class A is fair game no matter what.

 

[dryflyguy]

Man, it's really early for this annual question - and ensuing debate - to come up! don't usually see it until march.

Anyway - Big Fishing Creek in Clinton County is the one that confounds me.
It starts with class A headwaters. And runs into a 5 mile section of trophy trout water. Then turns back to another long section of class A water again. With the last mile of it - before it dumps into Bald Eagle creek - being ATW.
During the closed early spring season, I know you can fish the trophy trout water. And - since they're upstream of the ATW - I think you can fish both class A sections. But I'm not sure about it.

 

[k-bob]

The pfbc states online that "The traditional trout season and creel limits are in place for "Approved Trout Waters,..." and it mentions class a, wilderness, and wbtep as places you can fish year round C&R (post11).

My reading is that if isnt an ATW, where the traditional trout season applies, and you avoid fish harm beyond the act of merely catching the things, year-round fishing for wild trout in PA is legal.

(pfbc: the fish must be "immediately returned unharmed to the water from which it was taken." that's what I do anyhow. if a caught fish can be returned unharmed, then catching is not = fish harm.)

Also, I think that we might hear about it on this site if C&R fishermen were getting citations on non-ATWs in the fall, winter, and early spring. In the unlikely event I get such a citation, I'd ask for a hearing, and take the pfbc statements in post 11.

The few (two or three) times I have been asked to show my license by wcos, they were very friendly and professional... Given the pfbc language in post 11, I doubt they are out issuing citations that probably would not stick in a hearing anyhow.

Finally, for those of us that like to fish very small streams, Mike once mentioned that there is a minimum width for the state to stock a stream. (10'?) So, I don't think that a truly tiny stream can be an ATW, and if it's not an ATW...

 

[pcray1231]

k-bob, I've seen post 11, as well as several similar discussions. It just seems counter to the regs page on the website. And it's not in the book, whereas the regs page is. It leaves me wondering whether to go with how I read the law, or how I read some PFBC employees interpretation of it in a Q&A styled section buried deep in their website.

Here's the basic webpage:

http://fishandboat.com/fishpub/summary/inland.html

So for extended season, they list ATW's, give a limit of 3, and show a season end date of Feb. 28.

They list class A's SEPARATELY, say it's C&R, AND SHOW A SEASON END DATE OF FEB. 28. That's saying C&R is allowed up until Feb. 28, no? Implying it's not allowed thereafter?

Given this, I don't know how anyone can read it and come to the conclusion that upon the end of the season (Feb. 28), ATW's become closed to all fishing, yet class A's continue to stay open to C&R as they had been? If that was the case why would they even list a season end date for the class A?

 

[KeithS]

From the chart in the link:
"Extended Season (approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters)
Jan. 1 through Feb. 28 and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31 7 inches 3 (combined species)"



The summary DOES include the word " downstream" in relation to ATW's.

 

[pcray1231]

yes, it does.

It also has a class A section in the chart.

"Extended Season (Class A wild trout stream sections)
Jan. 1 through Feb. 28 and Sept. 8 through Dec. 31"

And this chart is what is in the regs book. NOT the Q&A posted earlier, which is buried in their website.

The bottom line is that the verbiage of their regs is highly inadequate to express what is and isn't legal. I've heard before that they wish to discourage fishing anywhere except special regs from Feb. 28-opening day, but don't want to put themselves on the hook for any responsibility to monitor those streams for people fishing out of season. That's not acceptable to me. The law should be clear. It's not.

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:
k-bob, I've seen post 11, as well as several similar discussions. It just seems counter to the regs page on the website. And it's not in the book, whereas the regs page is. It leaves me wondering whether to go with how I read the law, or how I read some PFBC employees interpretation of it in a Q&A styled section buried deep in their website.

Here's the basic webpage:

http://fishandboat.com/fishpub/summary/inland.html

So for extended season, they list ATW's, give a limit of 3, and show a season end date of Feb. 28.

They list class A's SEPARATELY, say it's C&R, AND SHOW A SEASON END DATE OF FEB. 28. That's saying C&R is allowed up until Feb. 28, no? Implying it's not allowed thereafter?

Given this, I don't know how anyone can read it and come to the conclusion that upon the end of the season (Feb. 28), ATW's become closed to all fishing, yet class A's continue to stay open to C&R as they had been? If that was the case why would they even list a season end date for the class A?

Very confusing regs, no doubt. Also, remember this year there is a hybrid class of streams...........Stocked Class A. It's anyone's guess as to if it is open to C&R fishing in the month of March. My guess would be it is not open to fishing, but that's just my guess.