Rafting company strands 43 in Lehigh River

Money, money, money.
 
They all signed release forms. Don't see where they'd has a leg to stand on.
 
I don't know the river or the gauges but it seems to me that things like this can happen when you go out in nature. They say the section of river went from 1.2 to 5 feet from a storm, things like this happen and have happened.... to me. If they didn't go out every time storms were in the forecast they would never leave home. If I'm missing something please let me know, but never been on a river where 1.2 feet on a gauge means stay home.
 
Some holyier then thou attitudes out there. When I go white water rafting I want high fast water. I don't want to be paddling my arse off in a lazy river. I'm pretty sure everybody that goes white water rafting does not want to paddle the entire trip. No I'm not an expert rafter but there's a big difference between dangerous shouldn't be out there levels and the high water flows the river was at. I'm also pretty sure that real white water rafting trips are far more dangerous then the conditions of the Lehigh after some rain. I don't want some wannabe politician telling me when I can go out on the river. If you go out and drown, that's on you and nobody else.

The sue happy mindset is perplexing to me. Yes you can file suit for whatever you want but that doesn't mean you will win. First there has to be a loss. None of the rafters seem to have incurred a loss. Second, the rafting company would have to have caused the lose. The fact that the river was high and their was some white water on your white water rafting trip is not the fault of the company. Why everybody Screams lawsuit is amusing to me. We always seem to forget that there are good lawyers on both side of the issue. The rafting company did nothing wrong by providing rafts and guides to people who wanted to go white water rafting and found some minor white water.

The first responders are paid for by taxpayer money to do exactly what they did. The notion that you should be billed because you were rescued is equally ridiculous.
 
Bamboozle wrote:
If it was up to me it's time a government agency is created and given the authority to determine what a threshold unsafe water level was after a rain event.
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Oh hell no. Thank god it's not up to you or anyone anyone else for that matter. Seems like you really think this is a good idea....smh.
 
poopdeck wrote:
Some holyier then thou attitudes out there. When I go white water rafting I want high fast water. I don't want to be paddling my arse off in a lazy river. I'm pretty sure everybody that goes white water rafting does not want to paddle the entire trip. No I'm not an expert rafter but there's a big difference between dangerous shouldn't be out there levels and the high water flows the river was at. I'm also pretty sure that real white water rafting trips are far more dangerous then the conditions of the Lehigh after some rain. I don't want some wannabe politician telling me when I can go out on the river. If you go out and drown, that's on you and nobody else.

The sue happy mindset is perplexing to me. Yes you can file suit for whatever you want but that doesn't mean you will win. First there has to be a loss. None of the rafters seem to have incurred a loss. Second, the rafting company would have to have caused the lose. The fact that the river was high and their was some white water on your white water rafting trip is not the fault of the company. Why everybody Screams lawsuit is amusing to me. We always seem to forget that there are good lawyers on both side of the issue. The rafting company did nothing wrong by providing rafts and guides to people who wanted to go white water rafting and found some minor white water.

The first responders are paid for by taxpayer money to do exactly what they did. The notion that you should be billed because you were rescued is equally ridiculous.
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Are you freakin serious???????????? Ignorance means you don't know better. IMHO greed and stupidity. Oh, do you not understand that peoples lives are at risk rescuing them? And in many situations like this, many of them are unpaid volunteers. Wow, clueless.
 
"I'm pretty sure everybody that goes white water rafting does not want to paddle the entire trip."

So, you can speak for the masses, people that have zero experience. We're not talking about paddling the entire trip here.

"The fact that the river was high and their was some white water on your white water rafting trip is not the fault of the company."

They should have known better. We're not talking about rescuing 2 or 3 people, but several dozen.
 
outsider wrote:
They should have known better. We're not talking about rescuing 2 or 3 people, but several dozen.
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So you can never take a large group rafting? Not sure your point there. To me the only thing I see is where were the water levels when they started the trip, according to the article they were reasonable. The water rose quickly due to a storm and the guides and rafters went to shore.
 
Not taking sides here, but I did a history search on USGS (I never leave home without it ;)). Peak height at Lehighton was about 7 ft, and Flood Level at that station is 9 ft. Maybe flash floods through the tribs put some trees and debris in the water, but the frequent peaks on the chart tell me that the dam dumps water on rafting weekends in order to give the rafters that fun white water experience. The attached article puts me in the mind that confusion and uncertainty/panic were the major factors here, as opposed to rafters being in more than the usual danger. Who says putting yourself on (into) moving water is perfectly safe?
 
outsider wrote:

Are you freakin serious???????????? Ignorance means you don't know better. IMHO greed and stupidity. Oh, do you not understand that peoples lives are at risk rescuing them? And in many situations like this, many of them are unpaid volunteers. Wow, clueless.
Click to expand...

Oh boy, it never fails. The knee jerks and the mouth starts name calling.

It's a WHITEWATER RAFTING business. To you that must mean if you take a WHITEWATER RAFTING trip and drown it's the fault of the business. To you it means if you have to sign a waiver of liability form to go WHITEWATER RAFTING it must be 100% safe with no potential of danger. To you a business that offers a risky product is offering it out of greed. Guess what, every business is in business to make money. greed has nothing to do with it and it's moronic to think otherwise.

First responders are great. I'm glad we have them. No I don't want to risk their lives but I'm damn glad they are there should I or my family ever find myself in a situation where I need assistance. That's what they are there for. That's why they do it. That's what they do. Again, wanting to charge for their service when their service is taxpayer funded is just as stupid as thinking WHITEWATER RAFTING has no inherent dangers. Yes, they may have been volunteers, but that's what they want to do. God bless them.

I happen to know plenty of first responders. In fact many of my dearest friends are first responders and I may have 4 decades as a first responder myself. You know what, I nor anybody I know would hold victims responsible for our safety when they are in a time of need. In fact it would be unthinkable to have that attitude and I would recommend anybody with that attitude to pursue work in a library or maybe a career as a lawyer.
 
There is a huge difference between whitewater rafting, and rafting down a big muddy river that has doubled in size and is up into the banks and trees, if anything there is minimal true "whitewater" and just a dangerous brutally fast current in a mucky high river with debris, with minimal river structural direction for inexperienced rafters to follow. I imagine as soon as all the rafters all hit the water they were so dispersed from all the various currents that the guides had lost track of where everyone was within the first hour. If anyone else fishes the Lehigh regularly, you know how different that water looks during a white water release vs. being absolutely blown out from a heavy rainfall and flooded tribs + the dam releasing water on top of that. You honestly can't compare those two types of conditions at all.

I imagine first responders had enough to deal with with the flooding of homes, roads, etc. and then now having to go out and deal with this mess on top of all that. Stretching their resources, in order to help people that could've initially been saved by a decision that could've been made with some common sense and general safety guidelines in place, by the outfitter themselves. No one is holding the victims responsible by any means. I've seen the Lehigh absolutely flooded during prime rafting weekends, and have never seen other outfitters operating in those types of conditions before. First responders are there to deal with the unknown and help anyone in need...I'm just saying there's enough evidence here that this whole ordeal could have easily been avoided given any sort of due diligence/common sense by the outfitter.

Didn't two people already die in July on the Lehigh, just from swimming? This is not a river to be messed with, and I still don't understand why it isn't treated with more caution both by the general public and outfitters. But what can we do...just glad they found everyone and no one was hurt. Hopefully there are some lessons to be learned from this whole situation.

 
Poop,

1500-2000 CFS at Lehighton is a good flow to whitewater. 8000 CFS on the other hand, downright dangerous even for experienced rafters. If the Outfitter didn't check flows, impending weather situation and consider that when sending out inexperienced rafters.....by all means the blame lies with them.

I believe it was comedian Ron White that was talking about standing outside in a hurricane. "It's not THAT the wind is blowing.... it's WHAT the wind is blowing.". Kinda tough to enjoy the day on the river when 60' trees are blowing by you like you're in the slow lane.
 
If they put in with the flow at 8000, I get it, that's negligent. If they put in below 2000, which they did, and a storm dumps a bunch of water, not so much.
 
ryansheehan wrote:
Bamboozle wrote:
If it was up to me it's time a government agency is created and given the authority to determine what a threshold unsafe water level was after a rain event.
Click to expand...

Oh hell no. Thank god it's not up to you or anyone anyone else for that matter. Seems like you really think this is a good idea....smh.
Click to expand...
Quite frankly I couldn't give a rats arse about the welfare of ANY ****** who goes out in a rain swollen river in a plastic boat for the thrill of all or to post images or videos on social media to show the world how great and brave they are.

Here's another thing you can shake your head at...I shed no tears at any bad outcomes.

What I don't like is seeing blowhards from out of state or out of the area who are are TOTALLY clueless as to the reality of what was and has been going on around here tell us it is OK to waste our resources.

But most importantly, I don't like seeing first responders having to risk THEIR lives to save idiots, especially when there were other people all over our region who didn't intentionally put themselves in danger for a thrill that were in need of assistance.
 
ryansheehan wrote:
If they put in with the flow at 8000, I get it, that's negligent. If they put in below 2000, which they did, and a storm dumps a bunch of water, not so much.
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Yes, but the outfitter also has a responsibility to look at the forecast and radar and factor that into their decision, along with the current flow. They’re responsible for their clients from put in to take out, and flows can and do change quickly, as was seen here.

I agree. It wouldn’t be reasonable to cancel trips every time there was a chance of rain or Tstorms, but your average line of Summer Tstorms during rafting season will barely even blip the Lehigh’s gauges. The forecast and radar Monday morning showed something very different.
 
Probably a bad decision by all. As far as first responders, I'm greatful for them but this is exactly what they signed up for.
 
krayfish2 wrote:
I looked at the river gauge and it appears that it went shooting up pretty dramatically after they had pushed off. The kayak guides who were out there recognised the danger and got people to the shore.
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These are point that it seems most people missed when they jumped to their conclusions. I am no longer amazed when people jump to conclusions based on a fraction of information.

Also, this expedition was also allegedly on the calmer part of the river.

First report was that they were searching for well over a hundred. As it turned out, they pulled about 30 from the river and they aren't even sure about that because so many simply pulled to shore on their own.

With that said, I think the blame lies on the Outfitter for not looking at the flow and the weather conditions. At the very minimum, the Outfitter should have their license suspended until an investigation is complete and they should be on the hook to pay for the Emergency Services needed. It could have ended much worse
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Maybe.

Did the 2+ inches of rain fall before they pushed off? I don't know. But if it did, or was known to be imminent, then I'd agree with this part.

We all know how difficult it is to predict where and how much when it involves thunderstorms.

I've had heavy rains forecaster several times this year, and it rarely happened. Occasionally I could actually see it passing to the north or south, but it's been somewhat dry here. It's foretasted again for tomorrow. I aint counting on it and guarantee that I won't sue if they get it wrong.

I am no longer amazed how quickly some people jump to conclusions on first reports which are always incomplete and often incorrect.

Not you of course (krayish).
 
To be clear, from a weather perspective, Monday was not your typical mid-Atlantic Summer hazy/hot/humid day that leads to scattered Tstorms in the afternoon. Or even your typical Summer cold front from the west or northwest that brings a more organized line of Tstorms. Neither of those situations would blow the Lehigh out from 2000 cfs to 8000 cfs in a few hours. This was a broader, larger scale low pulling moisture north from the south.

Most Summers you don't ever see this pattern, or at most maybe just once for a day or two, then a cold front from the west clears it out. We've had it happen several times in the last month. There hasn't been any real legit cold fronts to clear this pattern out. Think about it...We haven't had any of those mid 70's, low humidity days you get after such a front at all this Summer.

This pattern is more typical for April or early May, or late October/early November and results in those slow and steady all day soakers you typically see then. (This is what usually does in the annual PAFF Jam in May.) Problem when it happens in the Summer is warmer air can hold more water, hence torrential rain resulting in bigger rain totals and flooding.
 
For what it's worth, the article that I read mentioned that the "rafters" were all church girls from 12-16 years of age. I seriously doubt they had much, if any, experience running rapids on a rain swollen river. To my thinking they were completely reliant on the Outfitters/guides to make responsible decisions for them. I don't think that happened. Frankly, I believe the Outfitter just rolled the dice at the expense of their clients.
 
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