Rafting company strands 43 in Lehigh River

[timmyt]

https://www.tnonline.com/rafters-rescued-lehigh-river

Hopefully Whitewater Rafting Adventures gets a nice big bill for all the emergency services required yesterday. Inexcusable

 

[bradtheflyfisherman]

They should be fined, or shut down.

Absolutely preposterous that they allowed anyone on that river yesterday in those conditions. They are extremely lucky that no one died.

It's all about the money...

 

[bigjohn58]

Say goodbye to that business! Sued!

 

[Bamboozle]

If it was up to me it's time a government agency is created and given the authority to determine what a threshold unsafe water level was after a rain event.

When that level is reached, a public service announcement would be made, similar to "trailer bans" on the Turnpike.

After the announcement if you get caught out on the river and municipal government first responders have to save your sorry a$$, it is a $50,000 fine and you lose your boat!!

A few years ago while driving past an monumentally raging and rain swollen Potomac River at Harpers Ferry we saw a kayker going down the river, a river with full sized trees flowing down along with the ****** in the kayak.

This crap is getting ridiculous and the mollycoddling is even dumber!!

 

[The_Sasquatch]

BUT...what about the people who thought it'd be a good idea to go rafting in the first place? The "victims" here are victims of their lack of common sense.

 

[afishinado]

The_Sasquatch wrote:
BUT...what about the people who thought it'd be a good idea to go rafting in the first place? The "victims" here are victims of their lack of common sense.

According to the article, it was a group and "all are members of a church camp in New York." It's more likely than not, the members have no experience on the River, and had no idea about how high or dangerous it was at that time.

100% of the blame goes to the (greedy) rafting company that brought the people out there and knowingly put them in danger, so as not to lose the booking for a day.

 

[TimRobinsin]

That’s a pretty presumptuous statement you just made Sas’.

I don’t assume to know anything about these people other than they wanted to go rafting. I would hope that some of these folks would have done some research before heading out. However, my life experience has taught me to assume nothing.

These folks may or may not have much experience outdoors or around water. As such, they most likely don’t possess the “common sense” that you or I might have from years of being outdoors and on the water.

At that point I think the responsibility really falls on the more knowledgeable party in this situation. That would be the outfitter who has the greater experience in this situation. I feel bad for everyone involved, it’s not good for anyone when this stuff happens.

 

[FarmerDave]

afishinado wrote:

The_Sasquatch wrote:
BUT...what about the people who thought it'd be a good idea to go rafting in the first place? The "victims" here are victims of their lack of common sense.

According to the article, it was a group and "all are members of a church camp in New York." It's more likely than not, the members have no experience on the River, and had no idea about how high or dangerous it was at that time.

100% of the blame goes to the (greedy) rafting company that brought the people out there and knowingly put them in danger, so as not to lose the booking for a day.

The devil made them do it.

We don't know all of the details, but I am with Sasquatch on this one.

The rafting company certainly should share some of the blame, for not refusing their business. But unless they forced the church group into the rafts at gunpoint, they certainly shouldn't take all of the blame ... I presume.

 

[FarmerDave]

Bamboozle wrote:
If it was up to me it's time a government agency is created and given the authority to determine what a threshold unsafe water level was after a rain event.

When that level is reached, a public service announcement would be made, similar to "trailer bans" on the Turnpike.

After the announcement if you get caught out on the river and municipal government first responders have to save your sorry a$$, it is a $50,000 fine and you lose your boat!!

A few years ago while driving past an monumentally raging and rain swollen Potomac River at Harpers Ferry we saw a kayker going down the river, a river with full sized trees flowing down along with the ****** in the kayak.

This crap is getting ridiculous and the mollycoddling is even dumber!!

LOL! I though you were being serious until that last sentence. Good one!

 

[allan_s]

100% of blame goes on the company. Fine them for double the cost of the helicopters, equipment and time used by rescue services trying to make sure no died due to their mistake.

The participants (novices) paid the experts (raft company) to put them on the river. The experts should have been using risk management aka common sense and not been greedy.

 

[JackM]

I am pretty sure they all signed a release.

 

[FarmerDave]

JackM wrote:
I am pretty sure they all signed a release.

I was thinking that.

But for some reason I am doubting that it would remove the company from all liability in this case.

 

[Swattie87]

Those people didn’t know anything about the river’s level and what was safe. That’s on the professionals to know. Period. This doesn’t need to be regulated by the govt. Experienced WW guys seek out high flows (I have no clue whether yesterday on the Lehigh was in the right window for that, but just in general) like we look forward to prime hatch season. They take their PTO days to go raft when we’d look at it and think no way that’s safe. That’s their deal. They don't need the government telling them they can't do it.

When you’re running a guide outfit though, it's a different set of expectations. You’re responsible for customer’s safety, and though I won’t speculate, something clearly was amiss yesterday on the Lehigh in that regard. If conditions were such that the guides couldn’t keep everyone safe from put in to take out, or there was the possibility that conditions would reach an unsafe level at some point during the trip, they shouldn’t have had people out there. With that many people in trouble, it’s hard to believe it was a situation where one or two boats just didn’t listen to instruction and got out of position, but again, I won’t speculate.

I’ve done a Lehigh WW trip with one of this outfit’s competitors. For the most part, it’s all first timers on the water. Families with kids, etc. We were one of the last groups in our boat from the put in. We were relative whitewater novices too, but we’d all had reasonable experience on moving water in kayaks and what not, and had all done a few guided Class III type stuff WW trips before. Through the first couple sets of rapids there were huge logjams and pileups of boats getting stuck and piling into one another and blocking the preferred line to run…It really didn’t seem all that safe. We actually picked up a small girl that had been spilled from the boat with her family. In the first slow pool, we paddled hard to get up to the front of the group and were the first boat to run through the rest of the trip, behind the lead guide. We had a much better, and safer, go of it after that.

 

[FarmerDave]

Based on the attire, and that these rafters were all female, I'm thinking they could be Amish.

Amish don't sue.

;-)

But rafting company could still be in trouble with the authorities.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

TimRobinsin wrote:
That’s a pretty presumptuous statement you just made Sas’.

I don’t assume to know anything about these people other than they wanted to go rafting. I would hope that some of these folks would have done some research before heading out. However, my life experience has taught me to assume nothing.

These folks may or may not have much experience outdoors or around water. As such, they most likely don’t possess the “common sense” that you or I might have from years of being outdoors and on the water.

At that point I think the responsibility really falls on the more knowledgeable party in this situation. That would be the outfitter who has the greater experience in this situation. I feel bad for everyone involved, it’s not good for anyone when this stuff happens.

My original comment, and then I changed it because I couldn't piece it together in a way that made sense, had a sentence about how I believe the rafting company should be held financially responsible.

My point is just to ask, is there any shared responsibility here? I mean, common sense DOES say when a river is obviously flooded and moving fast, maybe we shouldn't mess with it. I don't think that common sense is relegated to those of us who are around waterways often.

But also, I do agree, the rafting company should have just said, "no, it's not safe". It could be the customers thought, "well, if it wasn't safe, they wouldn't run the rafts"

 

[troutwilleatflies]

When I read that article in the local paper the first thing that came to mind was ,no way anyone should be out on that water after that rain event.
The rafting company should be fined or at least pay for the cost for the rescue efforts that they caused because they knew that this was not a good day for floating the Lehigh river.

 

[FarmerDave]

Just some additional information.

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-nws-missing-rafters-whitewater-safety-pennsylvania-20180814-story.html#

 

[sarce]

Sasquatch wrote:
I mean, common sense DOES say when a river is obviously flooded and moving fast, maybe we shouldn't mess with it. I don't think that common sense is relegated to those of us who are around waterways often.

You're giving the average person too much credit, unfortunately. I have some (pretty limited, in no way an expert) experience guiding people in canoes with no prior exposure to paddling or even nature of any kind. These types made up the entirety of the group we led. One of them nearly drowned on a fairly tame float because despite wearing a life jacket, they clung to the side of an overturned canoe headed for a strainer because they thought they would drown if they let go and swam to shore (did not understand what the life jacket was for!). We had to rush over, grab him, and haul him to shore on the back of one of the other guide boats. The canoe ended up wedged under the log fully submerged and we had to go back the next day to retrieve it.

With that said, professional guides should understand how the usual lack of experience they are dealing with can quickly turn a slightly-unsafe situation into a nightmare...let alone a swollen Lehigh. Shared blame yes, but more on the guides IMO.

 

[wildtrout2]

Had there been any fatalities, this would be a much different story. Those people had ZERO business being on that river. Shame on those guides and their poor judgement!

 

[krayfish2]

I looked at the river gauge and it appears that it went shooting up pretty dramatically after they had pushed off. The kayak guides who were out there recognised the danger and got people to the shore. With that said, I think the blame lies on the Outfitter for not looking at the flow and the weather conditions. At the very minimum, the Outfitter should have their license suspended until an investigation is complete and they should be on the hook to pay for the Emergency Services needed. It could have ended much worse