Public Fishing Access On Posted Land, NO ONE KNOWS THE RULES!

[albatross]

My understanding is that if one is "float fishing", as long as they stay in the boat, they can legally fish a stream in which land owner owns the property on both sides. Once you step foot in the stream, you are illegal.

Some states take this a step further and give you the right to portage around an obstacle. Don't think we have anything like that in PA.

 

[tomgamber]

The little J ruling is only good for the little J. It doesn’t apply to any other streams in PA. Now they could use it as a case reference if another body of water in PA is challenged.

That’s where you come in Tom. If you have the money for the lawyers all of us would appreciate our favorite streams opened up.

I don't agree with what at all. Every case affects other cases. Your last sentence is you trying to be cute. Its not working.

 

[caddisflyer]

I would guess that if police or a warden is called that 99% of the time they will side with landowners and will not defend the publics rights to use public land and water unless it is clearly a public park or gameland. The high water mark stuff won't fly . I have had a landowner who mowed the banks of the Susquehanna river right to the waters edge who tried to throw me off as I waded through that section. I have shown a game warden where property lines were improperly posted by landowners on my ONX app and they showed little interest. I respect private property but I wish public property was also respected and public rights were also staunchly upheld.

 

[JimKennedy]

Not to say that this map is complete, but I think this was recently published by the state: https://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/publicstreambeds/

If this map reflects stream beds that are public property, those sections of the Codorus Creek fly fishing area that often come up as subject to being posted could well be open by default, regardless of posting. There is, however, a massive IF.
The BIG IF comes in when you click on the disclaimer under the creek name. It reads:

The waterways identified herein as having publicly-owned streambeds have been compiled by the Commonwealth over time from various sources. Identification is based upon information believed to be reliable and persuasive evidence of such ownership. The identification of a waterway as having a publicly-owned streambed herein is not intended to be a final determination that the waterway is navigable under state or federal law. Moreover, other waterways not identified herein may be navigable under state or federal law, in which case their streambeds would also be publicly-owned. The Commonwealth reserved the right to add or remove waterways identified as having publicly-owned streambeds as additional information becomes available.
Sources: Publicly-Owned Streambeds – PA DEP’s Lists of Stream Subject to the Submerged Lands License Program, 09/2003.

In other words, as Tom Waits said, the large print giveth and the small print taketh away. It looks like someone at the forest service was told to put together a list of public waters and found out what has been painfully evident in this thread: trying to figure it out is like trying to untangle a bird's nest in a child's spinning reel.

I know in theory I could wade up the banks of the Susquehanna and be in the right, but I'm not going to risk walking along a posted bank, even if I'm in the water.

When it comes down to it, there are two possible paths to resolving the issue:

• Judicial, wherein each stream bed is litigated (which could easily devolve into litigation with each adjacent property owner, and,
• Legislative, wherein people who enjoy spending time outdoors organize themselves to lobby for a statewide law that identifies which stream beds are public and which are private.

The latter, by the way, is the first amendment protected right to petition the government. While citizens are often accused of being things like "not in my back yard" jerks, petitioning the people we elect is the whole point of having elected officials. The big dogs and fat cats know this, which is why there's so much lobbying money on K Street in DC, and in the capital cities of every state of the union.

For me, until there is action that clarifies the matter, I'm staying off posted land unless I know for a dead-on fact that the person who posted both put the signs up illegally on public property, and is unlikely to shoot at me.

The previous comment about respecting the rights of private property owners, and respecting the rights of the general public to access public lands was well stated. Unfortunately, on this issue, there is little clarity (aside from the great rivers, etc) on what is public and what is private.

 

[Cznymph]

My understanding is that if one is "float fishing", as long as they stay in the boat, they can legally fish a stream in which land owner owns the property on both sides. Once you step foot in the stream, you are illegal.

Doesn’t even need to be a foot.

If you contact the stream bottom, with a boat, paddle, even a split shot or a hook, it is by legal definition trespassing.

 

[Mike]

My understanding is that if one is "float fishing", as long as they stay in the boat, they can legally fish a stream in which land owner owns the property on both sides. Once you step foot in the stream, you are illegal.

That is incorrect. Here’s the correct version from Q&A page on the topic on the PFBC web site:

Can a riparian landowner prevent members of the public from fishing or wading in a non-navigable water?

Yes

 

[discomidge]

Not to say that this map is complete, but I think this was recently published by the state: https://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/publicstreambeds/

Oh cool, Pine Creek here I come

 

[HopBack]

I don't agree with what at all. Every case affects other cases. Your last sentence is you trying to be cute. It’s not working.

That’s exactly what I said. This case could influence the ruling of other cases. The fact remains that the only the Lehigh and the little J have gone to court to determine whether or not they were navigable. The burden of proof is on you to show that a stream in question is in fact navigable. A landowner can take you to court on the basis of trespass. At that point, you would have to prove that the river system was in fact used for historical commerce and therefore falls under the same ruling as the little J. If a judge agrees than you did us all a favor.
That’s all I was saying.

You do you, but I’m telling you that just because you can float a plastic boat in the stream does not mean that you are entitled to the stream up to the high water mark. I wish this wasn’t the case but I will continue to respect private property rights until the PA Supreme Court makes a ruling and publishes a list of navigable streams in PA.

 

[tomgamber]

That’s exactly what I said. This case could influence the ruling of other cases. The fact remains that the only the Lehigh and the little J have gone to court to determine whether or not they were navigable. The burden of proof is on you to show that a stream in question is in fact navigable. A landowner can take you to court on the basis of trespass. At that point, you would have to prove that the river system was in fact used for historical commerce and therefore falls under the same ruling as the little J. If a judge agrees than you did us all a favor.
That’s all I was saying.

You do you, but I’m telling you that just because you can float a plastic boat in the stream does not mean that you are entitled to the stream up to the high water mark. I wish this wasn’t the case but I will continue to respect private property rights until the PA Supreme Court makes a ruling and publishes a list of navigable streams in PA.

You must get a lot accomplished by asking others tobit for you. Good plan.

 

[stashe]

If you look online at PFC under public water access, it gives a good general definition. There is no list of navigable waters.The main rivers are listed, that are open to the public use .

 

[Bonzoso]

I have shown a game warden where property lines were improperly posted by landowners on my ONX app and they showed little interest.

Don't rely on the ONX app. I know first hand that it can be inaccurate.

 

[troutbert]

Don't rely on the ONX app. I know first hand that it can be inaccurate.

That's true. The boundaries are often inaccurate. The reason for that is that they get the boundaries from the county government's tax parcel mapping and those boundaries are often inaccurate.

The legal boundaries are defined by the deeds, not by the county GIS tax parcel mapping.

 

[tomgamber]

I mean I guess you could just ask permission if it's not posted and leave if they say no.

 

[Duriensbane]

If this map reflects stream beds that are public property, those sections of the Codorus Creek fly fishing area that often come up as subject to being posted could well be open by default, regardless of posting. There is, however, a massive IF.
The BIG IF comes in when you click on the disclaimer under the creek name. It reads:

The waterways identified herein as having publicly-owned streambeds have been compiled by the Commonwealth over time from various sources. Identification is based upon information believed to be reliable and persuasive evidence of such ownership. The identification of a waterway as having a publicly-owned streambed herein is not intended to be a final determination that the waterway is navigable under state or federal law. Moreover, other waterways not identified herein may be navigable under state or federal law, in which case their streambeds would also be publicly-owned. The Commonwealth reserved the right to add or remove waterways identified as having publicly-owned streambeds as additional information becomes available.
Sources: Publicly-Owned Streambeds – PA DEP’s Lists of Stream Subject to the Submerged Lands License Program, 09/2003.

In other words, as Tom Waits said, the large print giveth and the small print taketh away. It looks like someone at the forest service was told to put together a list of public waters and found out what has been painfully evident in this thread: trying to figure it out is like trying to untangle a bird's nest in a child's spinning reel.

I know in theory I could wade up the banks of the Susquehanna and be in the right, but I'm not going to risk walking along a posted bank, even if I'm in the water.

When it comes down to it, there are two possible paths to resolving the issue:

• Judicial, wherein each stream bed is litigated (which could easily devolve into litigation with each adjacent property owner, and,
• Legislative, wherein people who enjoy spending time outdoors organize themselves to lobby for a statewide law that identifies which stream beds are public and which are private.

The latter, by the way, is the first amendment protected right to petition the government. While citizens are often accused of being things like "not in my back yard" jerks, petitioning the people we elect is the whole point of having elected officials. The big dogs and fat cats know this, which is why there's so much lobbying money on K Street in DC, and in the capital cities of every state of the union.

For me, until there is action that clarifies the matter, I'm staying off posted land unless I know for a dead-on fact that the person who posted both put the signs up illegally on public property, and is unlikely to shoot at me.

The previous comment about respecting the rights of private property owners, and respecting the rights of the general public to access public lands was well stated. Unfortunately, on this issue, there is little clarity (aside from the great rivers, etc) on what is public and what is private.

I was looking at that map and saw your post, right where Prospect Hill and Krafts mill intersect where the creek starts to bend it is heavily posted. Last I counted it was around 15 posted signs plus a cable above the creek. But if we were to go off the public streambed map, all of those are moot, but i wouldnt give it a go.

 

[MBWCC]

Some links for clarity due to poorly written article

Public / Private Access

www.fishandboat.com

https://nsglc.olemiss.edu/SandBar/SandBar6/6.2publicaccess.htm

Other than the great rivers, I am only aware of the Little J and Lehigh river cases. There is an ongoing case with Fishing Creek in Columbia Co.

To the OP, you have been around long enough to have seen this info before.

The document accessed in the first link above contains the following Q&A:

"Can a riparian landowner prevent the public from boating or floating in a non-navigable stream?

No, because there's a "navigation servitude" that gives the public the right to use the water for purposes of navigation only. This servitude does not extend to fishing. "

Look up the legal definition of "navigation servitude" -- it is a constitutional/federal law concept applicable to navigable waters. Now note that the PFBC response regards "non-navigable stream". A bit of critical contradiction there.

 

[Javelin389t]

Does anyone fish the Delaware just above the foot bridge in lumberville ? With shad season just around the corner we used to wade out in that area a lot. You could cross over canal path and walk down. Some time ago the area had been heavily posted. Being a navigable river can I ignore the signs and fish there ? Going by quote 2 under “public’s right to fish and navigabilty “ in your link it seems like I do ?

 

[Bamboozle]

The Delaware is definitely one river that is open but how you to GET TO that water IS an issue...

Landowners on either side are within their rights to post their property so if you have to cross any posted property to get on or off the water you ARE trespassing.

 

[BradFromPotter]

Don't rely on the ONX app. I know first hand that it can be inaccurate.

That's true. The boundaries are often inaccurate. The reason for that is that they get the boundaries from the county government's tax parcel mapping and those boundaries are often inaccurate.

The legal boundaries are defined by the deeds, not by the county GIS tax parcel mapping.

That's a given. But you do get an idea of where you are.

 

[Javelin389t]

The Delaware is definitely one river that is open but how you to GET TO that water IS an issue...

Landowners on either side are within their rights to post their property so if you have to cross any posted property to get on or off the water you ARE trespassing.

Got it

 

[laurelrun]

This debate comes up at least once a year. It's pretty simple to me. There is SO much public accessible water in Pennsylvania, why bother taking the risk? It's the entitlement displayed often in these discussions that leads to landowners posting in the first place. Know where you are fishing. Ask permission if it's private.

A great way to find public access, even via property property, is to help stock.