Pennsylvania's Best Brook Trout Waters?

[silverfox]

Just depends on the day when fishing Fishing Creek and depends on what you consider "BEST" being. Best as in numbers or best as in size? I doubt you find both those answers on one body of water. As far as numbers thats probably some small stream you shouldn't get answers on. Several years ago I caught a late winter/early spring BWO hatch. I caught a dozen brookies all in one hole with all being 10-12 inches. My biggest native brookie is 15". All from up Fishing Creek around and in the narrows. You can go other places and catch more brook trout but you won't be getting them that size.

I think the topic of this thread is an entirely different issue than whether such a stream exists in the state. They absolutely do. Name your criteria and it exists in this state. Biggest fish? Yes. Many fish? Yes. Many big fish? Yes. Remote? Yes. Those things all exist.

Two criteria don't exist. The predominant species present are brook trout. Able to withstand the angling pressure that comes with being labeled "the best". A subset of "pressure resilience" would be stream size and fertility along with public access and ease of access.

I don't know without digging into what criteria Virginia used to come up with their list, but I'd assume it's a combination of average fish size, the quantity of fish per/mile or kg/ha, the quantity of above-average fish, length, and size of the stream, public access, etc. etc. etc. In other words, all things considered.

Whatever criteria we would use to define the best brown trout waters, we have no issues listing those. Apply that criteria for brook trout, and suddenly such a stream doesn't exist.

Again, remember that we have no problem calling out Penns, Fishing, Spring, LJR and on and on and on.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Could be environmental too. A couple years back there was a very, very low period on Penns that concentrated the browns, perhaps providing an opening?

This is something I have been thinking alot about lately. Whats going on with brown trout collapse in Montana right now is fascinating. Flow regimes can have huge impact on fish regardless of temperature. I often wonder if low flows provide some environmental resistance to brown trout.

 

[pcray1231]

The browns are doing just fine there. There's just a better than typical for Penns representation of adult brook trout on top of them right now.

Have not caught immature brookies in Penns. Personally, I think some fish got into Penns from a trib. Whether it's a slow steady trickle due to removal of a barrier, or some singular event that pushed a slug of em down, I do not know. Maybe even a kid with a bucket, who knows?

The ones big enough to avoid becoming brown trout food stayed and thrived.

Has re-confirmed the light bias thing. If you're on Penns for an evening. You're nymphing away in heavy water, or maybe playing with an occasional bank riser behind a rock inches from shore showing a beak now and then, getting a bit frustrated you can't get a decent drift to it. Suddenly, out smack in the middle lane where you expect it to turn on tonight, you see that that first early rise, with a classic rise form, ring emanating from it. And you think to yourself, here we go, it's starting early, this is going to be a great night. That's the brookie, lol. You cast to it and catch it, and have to wait 2 more hours for the bulk of the browns to turn on for 10 minutes.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The browns are doing just fine there. There's just a better than typical for Penns representation of adult brook trout on top of them right now.

Have not caught immature brookies in Penns. Personally, I think some fish got into Penns from a trib. Whether it's a slow steady trickle due to removal of a barrier, or some singular event that pushed a slug of em down, I do not know. Maybe even a kid with a bucket, who knows?

The ones big enough to avoid becoming brown trout food stayed and thrived.

Assuming low flow were to affect browns in the penns watershed, which i am wondering about I have no idea if it does, more adults entering penns would speak to a process allowing more juveniles in the tributaries to mature in the tribs. So if low flow had an effect on the dynamics of brown trout vs brook trout producing more mature brook trout I would expect the effect on the browns would be in the freestones feeding penns, not the main stem that is spring influenced and has a good base flow with thermal refuge. I don’t know though. It would be interesting if some one studied this.

 

[pcray1231]

Oh, I think low flow affects browns. They do stack up at the mouths of tribs, or in spring holes. They become very concentrated at the height of a drought year. I think a lot even migrate significant distances, go miles up towards Elk/Pine where there's a stronger cold influence. I generally avoid fishing at such times but there's places where it's just visible and obvious.

But the population itself is remarkably resilient in Penns. You see the temperature of the main stem, see that stacked up behavior, and think, this is really gonna put a hurting on the brown trout population. There will be doom and gloom posts on this message board saying it's done for, someone saw a dead fish, temperatures have become lethal, no way many are surviving this, cross it off your list for a few years. Then come the following spring it's loaded with healthy brown trout of all ages just like it was every other year. Good streams have a way of doing that...

 

[Fish Sticks]

Oh, I think low flow affects browns. They do stack up at the mouths of tribs, or in spring holes. They become very concentrated at the height of a drought year. I generally avoid fishing at such times but there's places where it's just visible and obvious.

But the population itself is remarkably resilient in Penns. You see the temperature of the main stem, see that stacked up behavior, and think, this is really gonna put a hurting on the brown trout population. Then it doesn't. Come the following spring it's loaded with healthy brown trout of all ages just like it was every other year. Good streams have a way of doing that...

I can believe that I wonder what impact it has on the browns at the top of little weikert or any that would be in swift run or big poe or cherry where there is alot of direct overlap between smaller brook trout and brown trout.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Oh, I think low flow affects browns. They do stack up at the mouths of tribs, or in spring holes. They become very concentrated at the height of a drought year. I generally avoid fishing at such times but there's places where it's just visible and obvious.

But the population itself is remarkably resilient in Penns. You see the temperature of the main stem, see that stacked up behavior, and think, this is really gonna put a hurting on the brown trout population. There will be doom and gloom posts on this message board saying it's done for, someone saw a dead fish, cross it off your list for a few years. Then come the following spring it's loaded with healthy brown trout of all ages just like it was every other year. Good streams have a way of doing that...

We know browns spawn in the mainstem of penns so I would not expect a drop off in the mainstem either

 

[pcray1231]

You suggesting low flow --> browns stack off mouth, then go up trib. Brookies in trib escape browns by going down into Penns?

Possible I guess. I dunno. Yes, all of the tribs have brown trout in them. I can't say I've ever seen it as a significant Penns migration up, though. There are places near rivers where you have obvious river run fish in small streams, they're just oversized and shaped differently. Obviously a different population than the ones that grew up in that stream. Penns is not one of those places in my experience. The browns I've caught in those tribs are fairly rare, and sized and shaped appropriately like they grew up in the small stream.

 

[Fish Sticks]

You suggesting low flow --> browns stack off mouth, then go up trib. Brookies in trib escape browns by going down into Penns?

Possible I guess. I dunno. Yes, all of the tribs have brown trout in them. I can't say I've ever seen it as a significant Penns migration up, though. There are places near rivers where you have obvious river run fish in small streams, they're just oversized. Obviously a different population than the ones that grew up in that stream. Penns is not one of those places in my experience. The browns I've caught in those tribs are fairly rare, and sized appropriately like they are small stream born and raised.

Oh no im not suggesting that, i am assuming there are some browns that are born in the tribs and stay there to compete with brook trout. I wasn’t talking about those fish at the mouth.

 

[pcray1231]

I think this is a more likely explanation.

Panther/Swift/Little Poe via Big Poe. Could add Weikert, Cherry, the stream that comes down in Ingleby. These streams are really small with some gradient. Fish passage, up or down, is not generally easy. Not saying it doesn't happen, but probably not in large numbers.

Until something like this happens. This is upstream in Coburn. Can you imagine what those little freestoners looked like? I think you start with your nice orderly, these fish belong here and these other fish belong here thing. Something like this comes along and just scrambles everything, all kinds of fish wind up where they aren't supposed to be. And when it comes down, there they stay. The small brookies that wind up in Penns become food. The bigger ones have a fantastic new home and thrive for a few years before dying fat and happy of old age or a careless fisherman. Things slowly fade to normal until the next event like this.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I think this is a more likely explanation.

Panther/Swift/Little Poe via Big Poe. Could add Weikert, Cherry, the stream that comes down in Ingleby. These streams are really small with some gradient. Fish passage, up or down, is not generally easy. Not saying it doesn't happen, but probably not in large numbers.

Until something like this happens. This is upstream in Coburn. Can you imagine what those little freestoners looked like? I think you start with your nice orderly, these fish belong here and these other fish belong here thing. Something like this comes along and just scrambles everything, all kinds of fish wind up where they aren't supposed to be. And when it comes down, there they stay.

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Yea anythings possible i don’t know id like to see the fish commission look into it because if its an AOP issue like you said maybe they could access it more frequently. Theres just not really much manpower/capacity left to manage these ginormous regions for these overstretched biologists that are responsible for like a 6th of the state and like 20 species. The harchery program takes up all the money and staff.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I think the topic of this thread is an entirely different issue than whether such a stream exists in the state. They absolutely do. Name your criteria and it exists in this state. Biggest fish? Yes. Many fish? Yes. Many big fish? Yes. Remote? Yes. Those things all exist.

Two criteria don't exist. The predominant species present are brook trout. Able to withstand the angling pressure that comes with being labeled "the best". A subset of "pressure resilience" would be stream size and fertility along with public access and ease of access.

I don't know without digging into what criteria Virginia used to come up with their list, but I'd assume it's a combination of average fish size, the quantity of fish per/mile or kg/ha, the quantity of above-average fish, length, and size of the stream, public access, etc. etc. etc. In other words, all things considered.

Whatever criteria we would use to define the best brown trout waters, we have no issues listing those. Apply that criteria for brook trout, and suddenly such a stream doesn't exist.

Again, remember that we have no problem calling out Penns, Fishing, Spring, LJR and on and on and on.

Big Spring almost fits this description to a T

 

[silverfox]

A lot of what I advocate for could be or is directly/indirectly aimed at Big Spring. Big Spring absolutely should be our best wild brook trout stream.

It's worth pointing out that PFBC did propose removing rainbows in Big Spring. They admitted that the rainbows are likely limiting the brook trout population there. They also recommended angling regs that would protect brook trout and allow the harvest of brown and rainbow trout. The state backed down from its recommendations after receiving pushback from the "public."

As with any regulations or management decisions the state proposes, public input should never override biologists' recommendations. Adjustments could be made to make people feel better, but they should've never pulled the plug on it completely because a group of people (who should've supported it) got bent out of shape. People get over things. Usually, pretty quickly. The damage caused or maintained to the resources by bending to public whims is permanent and far more difficult to undo. No harm would have been rendered to any human by removing a nonnative species from Big Spring. Feelings would've been bruised temporarily.

Instead, here we are. Maintaining the status quo and pandering to people rather than the fish

 

[caddisflyer]

I am happy for all wild trout and overall Big Spring has gone downhill for all three types. If you care about Brook Trout or any of the wild fish there, then ask why is that stream worse than it has been in years even after all the work that has been done. There were more big Brook Trout than you could count in the ditch area alone at one time. And plenty of very big Browns and Rainbows throughout. Not anymore.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I am happy for all wild trout and overall Big Spring has gone downhill for all three types. If you care about Brook Trout or any of the wild fish there, then ask why is that stream worse than it has been in years even after all the work that has been done. There were more big Brook Trout than you could count in the ditch area alone at one time. And plenty of very big Browns and Rainbows throughout. Not anymore.

Erm. Not exactly.
There ARE less big rainbows and browns.
There ARE more wild brook trout then in yester years, they are further down stream and I still see lots of Big ones but are more throughout the system (not limited to the ditch).

That project was specifically aimed at brook trout. It did it's job.

I'm with silverfox, they pfbc should have gone all the way after the project by TU.

I think this thread highlights a very sad point.
We value the selfish desire of fishing experience over our Native fish.

 

[krayfish2]

So, a once thriving brook trout fishery that has forever been ruined by PFBC hatchery should be restored to what it was in 1870? With the damage done by the hatchery, we should be pretty happy that trout of any type live in the upper 2-3 miles.

Public opinion/ desire should never override biologist. Really? That may have also been the home range of the Dodo bird, maybe that can be restored too.

If bio report shows that only darter, sculpins and dace lived in that stream but it currently supports a high quality trout fishery that draws people from surrounding states to fish there..... you are onboard with removing the trout? Who cares what the public wants. Clean browns out of penns, little j, spruce, letort, etc. Let's get back to the way it used to be and reestablish ST as our state fish, only native trout..err char and we'll all be better for it.

From the early 80's -mid 90's, BS was an insane fishery. If any restoration work was done from town up to the hatchery, it would have continued down river. I don't think trout like living an ankle deep water where they can be picked off at will by predators.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I am happy for all wild trout and overall Big Spring has gone downhill for all three types. If you care about Brook Trout or any of the wild fish there, then ask why is that stream worse than it has been in years even after all the work that has been done. There were more big Brook Trout than you could count in the ditch area alone at one time. And plenty of very big Browns and Rainbows throughout. Not anymore.

This is not how nature works. Species don’t all sit around and sign coumbaya because we like to fish for them. There are native trout species in Pa and Invasive ones. Native species increase species variety in the food web /biodiversity abd ecosystem stability and invasive species decrease biodiversity/number of species in food web and cause ecosystem instability. This is a very well known and established ecological concept like the sky is blue. If the food web top down to bottom up is a jenga tower, invasive species take blocks out and native species leave them in place. If the whole thing comes toppling down your fishing will likely suck along with the function of the ecosystem. The problem is people have their feelings about how they want to use an ecosystem and don’t have any idea how it works and then just make stuff up. The water in hig speing is still cold, theres still plenty of habitat there is still plenty of food.

I can’t tell you how many times in pa i see this tunnel vision on habitat and stream characteristics from anglers in these cold spring creeks or heavily forested freestones with invasive speices. “The stream must be the reason it can’t support brook trout” the stream the stream the stream my god. Wake up. Head up 81 theres are orange AMD ridden freestoners coarsing theough abandoned mine sites that are in low 70’s degrees in august full of brook trout and coincidentally is just too acidic for invasive trout species

 

[Fish Sticks]

So, a once thriving brook trout fishery that has forever been ruined by PFBC hatchery should be restored to what it was in 1870? With the damage done by the hatchery, we should be pretty happy that trout of any type live in the upper 2-3 miles.

Public opinion/ desire should never override biologist. Really? That may have also been the home range of the Dodo bird, maybe that can be restored too.

If bio report shows that only darter, sculpins and dace lived in that stream but it currently supports a high quality trout fishery that draws people from surrounding states to fish there..... you are onboard with removing the trout? Who cares what the public wants. Clean browns out of penns, little j, spruce, letort, etc. Let's get back to the way it used to be and reestablish ST as our state fish, only native trout..err char and we'll all be better for it.

From the early 80's -mid 90's, BS was an insane fishery. If any restoration work was done from town up to the hatchery, it would have continued down river. I don't think trout like living an ankle deep water where they can be picked off at will by predators.

Again no one is saying what you are proposing is even possible and tour argument ignores the reference condition of bog spring. Do you think it was 10 feed wide 4 foot deep before colonialism??? Its a low gradient valley spring creek that sees very little increase in flow during storms its going to be flat, the cress is the habitat that protects the fish from the birds. Its so funny people like you talk about needing a time machine as if there are only two options then and now. Forget the enormous spectrum between the two points its either 14lb daniel websters brook trout or extirpation with you people. And yes if there is an endangered darter in there that suffers at the hands of invasive trout then that species should be protected and maybe for one wed have to put the ecosystem before our needs. I don’t think thats the case but look at chesapeake log perch. There are like 9 creeks left kn earth that have them and 2-3 are still stocked. It’s unbelievable. Brown and rainbow trout have conquered the entire world and we can’t let native brook trout have ONE creek any where in pa thats got more CFS than the last 10 seconds of us taking a p***

 

[Fish Sticks]

Why is biodiversity so important? - Kim Preshoff

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[Fish Sticks]

. Let's get back to the way it used to be and reestablish ST as our state fish, only native trout..err char and we'll all be better for it.

Just talked with powers that be at google and we made the change its now reestablished as our state fish