PA fish and boat makes stocking exemption for a class A stream with brook/brown trout

[falcon]

Agree. I have the NY license and a PA license with a trout stamp for the few times I fish a stream in the Poconos. However if a person only had the PA license is a trout stamp required on the PA Delaware River trout water. I believe not. Also is a stamp required to fish PA streams for Trout that are not stocked ?

 

[jifigz]

Agree. I have the NY license and a PA license with a trout stamp for the few times I fish a stream in the Poconos. However if a person only had the PA license is a trout stamp required on the PA Delaware River trout water. I believe not. Also is a stamp required to fish PA streams for Trout that are not stocked ?

Yes, a "trout stamp" is always required to fish for trout in Pennsylvania.

A current Pennsylvania Trout Permit is required to fish for trout in Pennsylvania waters.

That is copied from the PFBC. Here is the link.

Fishing Licenses & Regulations FAQs

Frequently asked questions about Pennsylvania fishing licenses, regulations and laws. License and permit categories; resident, non-resident, tourist, senior, multi-year.

www.fishandboat.com

The PFBC manual has read that way for years.. They make it clear. If you wanna trout fish, buy the stamp.. They even say boundary waters (ahem, Delaware, maybe)

 

[falcon]

It also appears if a person has a senior lifetime license issued when living in PA that license is valid even when the person moves to another state and is valid if the person travels to fish in PA. Is this true?

 

[Fly-Swatter]

Related question regarding PA fishing license: Are they still selling the "program" permits (ie, Wild Trout, Habitat/Waterway Conservation, etc.)?

 

[jifigz]

Related question regarding PA fishing license: Are they still selling the "program" permits (ie, Wild Trout, Habitat/Waterway Conservation, etc.)?

Yes, they are. I just bought my 2023 license yesterday and I opted to make the donation/buy the wild trout permit.

They are all still for sale.

 

[Stenonema]

I know a few people have felt that criticism of PA fish and Boat is undue or suggested that stocking issues can be resolved by private citizen to private citizen discussions.

I really wish there was a better understanding of how an extensive an effort has been made to fix the ongoing dumpster fire at PA fish and boat. Vacation days burned at work to go to fisheries and hatchery committee meetings to comment in person, hours and hours on the phone with different pa fish and boat staff on different issues, talking with commissioner Arway, taking time away from family and friends to drive to different wild trout summits held by PAFB to advocate for stocking reform.

I think some people not familiar with how many decades behind other states we are in management just kinda wander into these conversations seeing the single issue at hand. They are not aware of how much fruitless civil, calm, science based discussion has been had with the fish commission to no avail.

They don’t understand how bad it is

They don’t understand how we got here

This is not these peoples faults there is no reason they would be aware of this. If your an angler in pa and you have just seen PFBC’s media releases and material for your whole life and have not seen how hard fisheries science research tears them apart than It seems we unfairly upset with the comission.

In the end educating the public is their responsibility. OH but we do it! More time spent away from family and friends hitting the road to talk to sportsman’s groups and give talks that are informative but not accusatory or disrespectful. But not many are willing to change anything.

Why?

Messaging from PA fish and boat doesn’t change along with regulations. Practices don’t change.

Want me to answer that?

 

[jifigz]

Want me to answer that?

I'm intrigued....go ahead.....

 

[jifigz]

I just sent an email to a PFBC biologist that I was in touch with years ago regarding a different topic. The email was pertaining to me discovering rainbows in a mountain freestoner that are 100% wild. I have fished this stream for years and never saw wild rainbows until this year and now I have found A LOT. It is a wild brook trout stream that is stocked by the PFBC. The stream is not Class A but likely would be with the cessation of stocking and has Class A brookie feeder streams. If wild bows are in this creek, then they are probably in the Class A brookie feeder streams as well. The stream used to be stocked with majority brook trout but people pushed to not have brook trout stocked over natives as to not taint the native strain of brookie. In the last several years they have started talking almost 100% rainbows in this creek and, voila, now I am finding wild bows. I know they have triploids, fish that aren't supposed to reproduce, yada yada yada, but as Dr. Malcolm in Jurassic Park says, "life will find a way."

So, my question from this is this: Was the state better off stocking brookies over native brook trout or are they better off stocking bows and potentially being the source for introducing a new wild trout to the system? Obviously, we know the struggles the southern Appalachians have had with rainbow trout over taking brook trout streams.

I know everyone will say they shouldn't stock any trout over these wild brookies and, while I agree, that wasn't one of the two options. This is a very popular stream with a lot of usage and will not be taken off the stocking list any time soon, of that I am certain. I will say, despite stocking it is easy to catch large numbers of natives still in this particular stream.

 

[silverfox]

So, my question from this is this: Was the state better off stocking brookies over native brook trout or are they better off stocking bows and potentially being the source for introducing a new wild trout to the system?

In my opinion, stocking brook trout over brook trout is worse than stocking nonnative trout over brook trout if I have to choose between two poisons.

I know everyone will say they shouldn't stock any trout over these wild brookies and, while I agree, that wasn't one of the two options.

This is just insane to me. The comfort level with sacrificing populations of brook trout. I don't think anyone knows how long displacement takes. In some cases, it might happen quickly, others over decades, sometimes far longer, and maybe, not at all. There is that risk in all cases, however, and to throw caution to the wind with such disregard for the resource is appalling.

 

[jifigz]

In my opinion, stocking brook trout over brook trout is worse than stocking nonnative trout over brook trout if I have to choose between two poisons.


This is just insane to me. The comfort level with sacrificing populations of brook trout. I don't think anyone knows how long displacement takes. In some cases, it might happen quickly, others over decades, sometimes far longer, and maybe, not at all. There is that risk in all cases, however, and to throw caution to the wind with such disregard for the resource is appalling.

I don't disagree. I think we should stop stocking over all wild trout populations, period. In fact, I think we could effectively end trout stocking statewide, alter regulations and have better quality trout fisheries for everything all forms of wild trout. Plus, I think after the initial shock to the public wore-off they would be on board with the program. People can learn to fish for other fish species in areas of the state where wild trout don't thrive. I also think the PFBC would eventually be in better financial condition without the running of the trout hatcheries. That consumes SO MUCH RESOURCES.

But I said it is not an option because it isn't and I can accept that. Especially popular streams such as that one. That change likely won't happen in my lifetime. But I also acknowledge that we are making progress because we continue to stock less and less over wild trout populations.

 

[Bamboozle]

It also appears if a person has a senior lifetime license issued when living in PA that license is valid even when the person moves to another state and is valid if the person travels to fish in PA. Is this true?

From the Summary:

All issued resident fishing licenses will remain valid for the year or years for which issued, regardless of whether the license holder is no longer a bona fide Pennsylvania resident.

 

[troutbert]

I wouldn't assume that that rainbow trout population came from PFBC stocking. The chances of that are low. Unless the PFBC has changed their hatchery rainbow strain in recent years.

 

[jifigz]

I wouldn't assume that that rainbow trout population came from PFBC stocking. The chances of that are low. Unless the PFBC has changed their hatchery rainbow strain in recent years.

Sure, and I am not saying it did come from the PFBC. I am saying that it now exists, however, and seems to be quite strong considering I have caught well over 20 wild bows from the creek in only two outings there this year.

Considering I have been fishing this stream for over a decade and never saw, I highly doubt they've always been there either. They just sprung up and have had to have come from somewhere. I am hoping the PFBC biologist can shed a little light on the situation. When it was last surveyed, what they found, etc etc.

 

[Mike]

What are the typical lengths of these fish and what is their length range? Do you find them annually? These would be the first questions that I would ask if I were an AFM receiving such an inquiry. I would also ask if you knew if anyone else was stocking RT in the creek (thinking about spring spawning RT vs PFBC fall spawners and relative likelihood of spawning success).

 

[jifigz]

What are the typical lengths of these fish and what is their length range? Do you find them annually? These would be the first questions that I would ask if I were an AFM receiving such an inquiry. I would also ask if you knew if anyone else was stocking RT in the creek (thinking about spring spawning RT vs PFBC fall spawners and relative likelihood of spawning success).

Hey Mike. The fish are from 2" at the smallest up to 8" at the largest. These are the fish that I can 100% identify as wild bows. All the rainbows larger than that, even though they have nice looking fins, etc, I suspect are hatchery fish. And, I can tell you, from fishing this stream for many years, hatchery fish hold over all summer and remain into the next year.

Someone else might stock it, but I doubt it since it is already heavily stocked by the PFBC.

 

[silverfox]

Hey Mike. The fish are from 2" at the smallest up to 8" at the largest. These are the fish that I can 100% identify as wild bows. All the rainbows larger than that, even though they have nice looking fins, etc, I suspect are hatchery fish. And, I can tell you, from fishing this stream for many years, hatchery fish hold over all summer and remain into the next year.

Someone else might stock it, but I doubt it since it is already heavily stocked by the PFBC.

Is it on this list?

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Stocking/StateFishHatcheries/CooperativeNurseryProgram/Documents/CNU-Stockings-Website.pdf

 

[Mike]

OK, so this may be one of those extremely unusual streams where an apparently larger than standard year class of RT was produced in a stocked stream section. It will be interesting to see 1) if this group lasts very long and 2) if that amount of reproduction becomes consistent or that higher than normal amount was a one time event.

I had that happen once that I know of with golden rainbow trout in a Schuylkill Co stream, that being a fairly large number of fingerlings. Two yrs later a check-up revealed that none of the goldens remained. Elsewhere, it was unusual to find any RT spawning success from PFBC stocked RT and where I did it was once and done for a given stream with a very low density of 1-3 RT YoY captured in 300 m of electrofishing. Yearlings were even more unusual and almost non-existent except for one time in the Ltl Schuylkill DH Area and for a few yrs in Codorus Ck’s special reg area back in the 1980’s or early 1990’s. Reproduction of RT there then stopped entirely after a few years. Pennsylvania limestoners are a different story and those with more moderate fall/winter temps upon receiving fall spawning RT could more readily produce reproducing populations. Greater consideration regarding stocked species selection is warranted in those cases.

Before someone jumps all over this, yes I am aware of populations in Big Spring, Falling Springs Branch ( not only aware w/ those 2, but professionally highly experienced) some in the Laurel Highlands, and two pretty good ones in the Allegheny basin near Tionesta. I’m not speaking about those in my comments above and in some cases, such as those near Tionesta, it is believed that those populations were not progeny of PFBC stockings because they are spring spawners. My contact indicated that the probable source was federal hatcheries back in the 1930’s or 1940’s.

 

[jifigz]

Is it on this list?

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Stocking/StateFishHatcheries/CooperativeNurseryProgram/Documents/CNU-Stockings-Website.pdf

Yo Silverfox, thats a great link. And yes, the stream is actually on that list and is stocked by a Sportsman's Club as well. After some digging and discovering where Section 5 is, the Sportsman Club stocks it way downstream from where I generally fish. The section they stock is below where any wild trout have been documented by the PFBC (and I know they don't always have this right and sometimes their limits are actually a guestimate.) Between where the sportsman club stocks it and where the wild bows are there is a rather impassable barrier, or at least a very difficult barrier, but I would think that it is impassable to trout.

 

[Mike]

Yo Silverfox, thats a great link. And yes, the stream is actually on that list and is stocked by a Sportsman's Club as well. After some digging and discovering where Section 5 is, the Sportsman Club stocks it way downstream from where I generally fish. The section they stock is below where any wild trout have been documented by the PFBC (and I know they don't always have this right and sometimes their limits are actually a guestimate.) Between where the sportsman club stocks it and where the wild bows are there is a rather impassable barrier, or at least a very difficult barrier, but I would think that it is impassable to trout.

I found it hard in some cases in SE Pa to solidly nail down club stocking limits because of local names for various locations and variations as to who was running the stocking operation from year to year. There were even local names for some of the creeks to overcome, let alone the stocking point names.

 

[streamerguy]

The PFBC approved of the exemptions:

(it's towards the bottom of this article)

Fish and Boat Commission Details

www.media.pa.gov