PA fish and boat makes stocking exemption for a class A stream with brook/brown trout

[Silent Ocelot]

I wholeheartedly agree! A pond would be a much better idea for a trout like rodeo, if such a thing simply needs to happen. A pond is an isolated body of water so they stocked fish would be confined to that specific area and they would be unable to "invade" like they do in creeks. If the pond isn't spring-fed, shaded, or deep, the summer would roll in and wipe the surviving stocked trout out anyways. Cruel, maybe, but much more preferred to introducing trout into watersheds where they will have a negative impact on that watershed. Good thinking @kbobb.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

A pond is safer for kids and easier for parents to manage. I'm assuming that the rodeo is actually for kids. I've seen too many where parents do all the fishing but bring a kid to make it look good.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

I am not familiar with the creek/area in question but isn't there a local pond/park in that area where they could have the fishing day for kids?

I am fairly familiar with Salt Run area and am 95% sure that this excemption request is for a pond on what they call the " Andrews Farm". There is a youth organization with a name like CCOYA that hosts events on property. I think the pond outflow is a small PVC pipe that dumps into Salt Run.
I also believe Emporium Water owns a section of Salt Run 02. That section seems less likely for a kids derby. Andrew's Farm and Water Company land is separated by a tract of Elk State Forest and maybe a few small parcels. Also,Emporium Water owns other properties that are on waters that are already stocked.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

I am fairly familiar with Salt Run area and am 95% sure that this excemption request is for a pond on what they call the " Andrews Farm". There is a youth organization with a name like CCOYA that hosts events on property. I think the pond outflow is a small PVC pipe that dumps into Salt Run.
I also believe Emporium Water owns a section of Salt Run 02. That section seems less likely for a kids derby. Andrew's Farm and Water Company land is separated by a tract of Elk State Forest and maybe a few small parcels. Also,Emporium Water owns other properties that are on waters that are already stocked.

The Google machine helped me find CCOYA/Andrews Farm and 2021 CCOYA fish fest and now feel more like 97.9% that the exemption request is for the pond on Andrews Farm and more specifically CCOYA Fish Fest.

 

[CRB]

Why not try to guide the fishing derby to a better venue?
4 pages of bashing does little, why not try to educate the derbies?
Perhaps even volunteer or perhaps make up a program to educate the organization and kids in the importance of wild trout.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

I ask myself the same things. There is all different kinds of groups that raise money from the derbies. Youth orgs,trout co-ops, fish and game clubs ,fire stations and even the diocese host trout derbies. That seems like a good way to alienate people.

 

[streamerguy]

If the derby is indeed at the pond and only the pond, and it is only the pond that gets stocked, then Salt Run shouldn't even be listed in that proposal (and this wouldn't even be a discussion). It can't be listed because the pond is connected to the stream in some way shape or form (like via a small outflow pipe), because there are literally reservoirs ON streams that the PFBC identifies as separate bodies of water, with separate management practices and regulations. Something is fishy....

I don't think anybody is bashing the actual derby or the benefits of kids derbies. I bet we can all agree that talking to them about changing the venue, educating, etc. is the way to go. Folks are bashing the PFBC for refusing to make progress when it comes to wild trout management, and finding ways to continue to stock over wild trout, and the PFBC going against their very own guidelines set by themselves.

In the perfect world, the PFBC would be like "hey, this stream is Class A and can't be stocked.....here is a list of some local alternative locations for your derby that we think would be good choices, let us you what you think and we'll help out in any way we can." I suppose we (non-PFBC people) will have to take on that task.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Why not try to guide the fishing derby to a better venue?
4 pages of bashing does little, why not try to educate the derbies?
Perhaps even volunteer or perhaps make up a program to educate the organization and kids in the importance of wild trout.

Oh, just that easy?!

Thank goodness! All these years, in various places of the state, who knew it would just take logical conversation and education to wipe out years of tradition and entitlement mentalities.

Please yes. You sound like an expert in such endeavors because clearly your thoughts on this are unique. No one has ever tried them! Let's try it out. Come over to Berks County and reason with the sportsman that run the Hay Creek "kids" derby and educate them.

Maybe you can even convince them to stop using heavy machinery to scour out pools and stack rock dams for their event.

Bring a bat and a stun gun just in case, they can be aggressive but I have a good feeling about you.

 

[silverfox]

Oh, just that easy?!

Thank goodness! All these years, in various places of the state, who knew it would just take logical conversation and education to wipe out years of tradition and entitlement mentalities.

Please yes. You sound like an expert in such endeavors because clearly your thoughts on this are unique. No one has ever tried them! Let's try it out. Come over to Berks County and reason with the sportsman that run the Hay Creek "kids" derby and educate them.

Maybe you can even convince them to stop using heavy machinery to scour out pools and stack rock dams for their event.

Bring a bat and a stun gun just in case, they can be aggressive but I have a good feeling about you.

Right. Rather than PFBC simply following their own guidelines, it should be up to a bunch of civilians to convince other civilians to change the venue and educate the public? That makes absolutely no sense. Whether educating the public about why they shouldn't do something, outright preventing it because of the law, or providing alternative solutions, it's squarely on PFBC's shoulders. Hence PFBC receives the criticism.

 

[JeffP]

Why not try to guide the fishing derby to a better venue?
4 pages of bashing does little, why not try to educate the derbies?
Perhaps even volunteer or perhaps make up a program to educate the organization and kids in the importance of wild trout.

In theory that sounds nice. In practice that sounds like quite a time-consuming endeavor. In general, this is exactly what the critics are doing. Isn't that what TU and many organizations are doing? Aren't the rabble-rousers on here the passionate one who are on the ground doing something? Haven't we made progress? Admittedly there's a lot to do and change doesn't some fast enough for some. You could make them follow the rule and it's done. I feel it may be the message rather than the messenger that people have a problem with.

 

[silverfox]

This reminds me of a situation a few years ago where a sportsman club had posted on social media about the streams they were stocking. One of the streams they mentioned is a small native brook trout stream that is not on the stocking list, and a few people questioned why they were stocking it. Their response was, "because the state said we can." The conversation ends there. No amount of attempts by civilians to change their minds will have any effect while the state is giving them the green light.

 

[troutbert]

If the derby is indeed at the pond and only the pond, and it is only the pond that gets stocked, then Salt Run shouldn't even be listed in that proposal (and this wouldn't even be a discussion). It can't be listed because the pond is connected to the stream in some way shape or form (like via a small outflow pipe), because there are literally reservoirs ON streams that the PFBC identifies as separate bodies of water, with separate management practices and regulations. Something is fishy....

I think that it's unlikely that this conflict is in regard to the pond. They're saying Salt Run, so they probably mean Salt Run. If they meant the pond, wouldn't they SAY the pond?

The pond can be seen on aerial imagery, in the floodplain getting down close to the mouth of Salt Run. It's not an impoundment of the stream.

I've never heard of a case where Class A designation of a stream was applied to a nearby pond.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Right. Rather than PFBC simply following their own guidelines, it should be up to a bunch of civilians to convince other civilians to change the venue and educate the public? That makes absolutely no sense. Whether educating the public about why they shouldn't do something, outright preventing it because of the law, or providing alternative solutions, it's squarely on PFBC's shoulders. Hence PFBC receives the criticism.

Exactly, I mean they said it was their job themselves in the below document, then again they said no exemptions for stocking class A waters with a brook trout population too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fisheries/TroutPlan/Documents/strategies.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi1s62c4bX8AhXCkokEHerBARY4ChAWegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw3KaOirMXfJdl4PD8b7Jlbl

How is this going btw fellas?
Maybe the private citizens can accomplish all this without them too.

What a joke.

 

[CRB]

Oh, just that easy?!

Thank goodness! All these years, in various places of the state, who knew it would just take logical conversation and education to wipe out years of tradition and entitlement mentalities.

Please yes. You sound like an expert in such endeavors because clearly your thoughts on this are unique. No one has ever tried them! Let's try it out. Come over to Berks County and reason with the sportsman that run the Hay Creek "kids" derby and educate them.

Maybe you can even convince them to stop using heavy machinery to scour out pools and stack rock dams for their event.

Bring a bat and a stun gun just in case, they can be aggressive but I have a good feeling ab

It is..
Get involved ,organize, and do the work; others on this board have been involved and changed the system on other issues.
It does work.
Takes integrity.
Takes perseverance.

I've participated in such an effort and fisherman in this State now benefit from this effort.


PM me and i will be more specific.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

It is..
Get involved ,organize, and do the work; others on this board have been involved and changed the system on other issues.
It does work.
Takes integrity.
Takes perseverance.

I've participated in such an effort and fisherman in this State now benefit from this effort.


PM me and i will be more specific.

I forgot the last 30 years of my life.
Where am I , what day is it?

Believe it or not people can multitask.
They can both bash the PFBC when they do wrong and be involved in conservation on the ground.

What you suggest does work, in some cases and not others. That's why the PFBC must have backbone and uphold their own policies. Come on this isn't hard to understand or unreasonable.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

This reminds me of a situation a few years ago where a sportsman club had posted on social media about the streams they were stocking. One of the streams they mentioned is a small native brook trout stream that is not on the stocking list, and a few people questioned why they were stocking it. Their response was, "because the state said we can." The conversation ends there. No amount of attempts by civilians to change their minds will have any effect while the state is giving them the green light.

☝️

 

[CRB]

I'm out

 

[sixfootfenwick]

This reminds me of a situation a few years ago where a sportsman club had posted on social media about the streams they were stocking. One of the streams they mentioned is a small native brook trout stream that is not on the stocking list, and a few people questioned why they were stocking it. Their response was, "because the state said we can." The conversation ends there. No amount of attempts by civilians to change their minds will have any effect while the state is giving them the green light.

You should try organizing with a conservation group, getting involved and sticking with it.

Right?

I mean, it's obvious you just sit and complain.
😂

 

[Fish Sticks]

I know a few people have felt that criticism of PA fish and Boat is undue or suggested that stocking issues can be resolved by private citizen to private citizen discussions.

I really wish there was a better understanding of how an extensive an effort has been made to fix the ongoing dumpster fire at PA fish and boat. Vacation days burned at work to go to fisheries and hatchery committee meetings to comment in person, hours and hours on the phone with different pa fish and boat staff on different issues, talking with commissioner Arway, taking time away from family and friends to drive to different wild trout summits held by PAFB to advocate for stocking reform.

I think some people not familiar with how many decades behind other states we are in management just kinda wander into these conversations seeing the single issue at hand. They are not aware of how much fruitless civil, calm, science based discussion has been had with the fish commission to no avail.

They don’t understand how bad it is

They don’t understand how we got here

This is not these peoples faults there is no reason they would be aware of this. If your an angler in pa and you have just seen PFBC’s media releases and material for your whole life and have not seen how hard fisheries science research tears them apart than It seems we unfairly upset with the comission.

In the end educating the public is their responsibility. OH but we do it! More time spent away from family and friends hitting the road to talk to sportsman’s groups and give talks that are informative but not accusatory or disrespectful. But not many are willing to change anything.

Why?

Messaging from PA fish and boat doesn’t change along with regulations. Practices don’t change.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I cannot emphasize enough that failure to enact stocking reform is not due to lack of civil communication with the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Comission