Over lining a rod

I must admit I have never fished a stream where a seven foot 5wt rod overlined with 7wt line would be the perfect rod and I have fished many tight, confined, close quarter streams. I honestly don't understand.

I have used traditional rated medium-fast and fast action rods with the rod's rated line of 3-5wt with no problems in very small and tightly confined streams. Three feet of line off the tip, short leader, weighted streamer, backcast fired into a hole in the brush to essentially sling shot the line forward and I have never had issues getting a fly to where it needs to be. Many times I am not even casting but rather positioning the fly in the stream and maneuvering the rod tip to allow the current to deliver the fly to the trout. In most instances creating as little disturbance as possible is key so I just don't see how sledgehammering eight feet of 7wt line onto the water doesn't spook every trout within fifty feet.

The lightest rod I have ever used was a TFO Finesse series 2wt that a friend of mine bought and that rod worked perfectly fine with a 2wt line. If tossed everything from size 10 unweighted streamers to size 12 dries at all distances within twenty five feet. I was actually surprised how well it performed.
 
I had that tfo finesse 2w rod and tried it with 2w and 3w lines on very small streams...liked it better overlined. ditto for the finesse 6'9"1w rod. great zippy little tiny stream rod with a 3w line.

The finesse rods worked with the line they were rated for, but for me they worked better on very small streams overlined. Makes sense, since rods are made to cast the weight of 30' of the rated fly line, and on a small stream you only cast 10-15' of fly line.





 
double post whoops!.





 
johnstevens5462 wrote:
I must admit I have never fished a stream where a seven foot 5wt rod overlined with 7wt line would be the perfect rod and I have fished many tight, confined, close quarter streams. I honestly don't understand.

...In most instances creating as little disturbance as possible is key so I just don't see how sledgehammering eight feet of 7wt line onto the water doesn't spook every trout within fifty feet.

I agree 100%.

I'm not fishing with his fly rod, so I don't really care either.

Thanks for the write-up on the rod actions, it was informative.

 
Post about rod actions was informative. I even agree that there is no "need" to overline for small streams: I could fish any rod I own on any stream, no matter how small, with its rated line. But a need basis is a pretty low standard: I don't need a 7' rod on very small streams, I could use a 9'; don't need the 9' on a big stream, I could use the 7'... To me, the issue isn't need but whether a rod works better on a given stream type with a different line weight.

"The lightest rod I have ever used was a TFO Finesse series 2wt that a friend of mine bought and that rod worked perfectly fine with a 2wt line. If tossed everything from size 10 unweighted streamers to size 12 dries at all distances within twenty five feet. I was actually surprised how well it performed."

Ok but did you try it with a 3w? I owned that rod and fished it with 2w, 3w, and 4w lines. For me, it worked better overlined, particularly on very small streams.

I can think of two reasons to use a rod with a different line weight than it was rated for. First, you use it on a tiny stream and cast only half of the thirty feet of fly line rods are rated for, or less. And also, not all rods rated as 2 weights are really the same as you try 1w, 2w, 3w lines on them.

too many variables including the person & fishing envt to conclude that rods will work better with their rated line vs a lighter or heavier one... for ex, on very small streams I like to roll cast given obstructions behind, and overlining imho can work for better short range roll casts..











 
AFTM number In grains (range) In grams In ounces
3 100 +/- 6 6.48 0.228
4 120 +/- 6 7.78 0.274
5 140 +/- 6 9.07 0.32
6 160 +/- 8 10.42 0.366
7 185 +/- 8 11.99 0.422
8 210 +/- 8 13.61 0.48
9 240 +/- 10 15.55 0.55
10 280 +/- 10 18.14 0.64
11 330 +/- 12 21.38 0.75
12 380 +/- 12 24.62 0.86

So that there is the chart showing line weight standards for 30', and I'm just not buying the whole overlining thing, I think it's pretty much all in ya'll's head.

Look at the numbers and simplify, 30' of 4wt is 120grain, 10' is then roughly 40grain assuming a level line, it's even less in real world if you could account for the line taper in that first 10'. 10' of 5wt is ~47grain.

More math, in order to get 47 grain of 4wt off the tip, you need about 12' of line.

So, what I'm seeing in this thread is that your rod won't load properly with 10' of 4wt off the tip, but it feels great with a 5wt at 10'. So, does that mean that your rod won't load with 10' 4wt, but magically comes alive once you get 12' off the tip? Really?

In PCray's case, jumping from 5wt up to 7wt (62grain @ 10') is equivalent to casting 10' vs 13' of 5wt. Again, I'm not buying that you can't throw a nice tight loop at 10', but put 13' in the air and she really comes alive, throwing those uber tight brush busting loops.

Sorry, just not buying this whole need to overline a rod to make it work in close. If you're casting with 5-10-15 feet of line off the tip, jumping up a line weight or two just doesn't make enough difference when you look at the numbers.
 
Fly rods are designed to cast over a range of distances. Some cast better from 10-30 feet while others cast better at 30-50 feet. The thirty feet was not a design point rather it was a point of reference to rate a rod and it really is no longer valid.

Fly lines are also no longer "standard." You have 5wt lines that are closer in weight to a 6wt. You have longer tapers, shorter tapers, etc. If rods were designed to a point rather than a range everyone would need to carry two to three lines in order to fish them.

As for short line casting, if you have 2-3 feet of 3wt line from the tip on a true 3wt rated rod, first your not going to be able to shoot it 10-15 feet and second, going up two line sizes is essentially negligible when it comes to loading the rod with this short length of line. Your not even close to being into the heavier belly or body of the line you've got just the thin front tip and beginning of the front taper outside the tip of your rod. All you are doing is snapping the line backwards, letting it straighten, and snapping it forward. You can do this with a broomstick, there is no loading the rod. It is high stick nymphing except done more in a horizontal plane.

If you bought a rod to fish streams where you are aerializing 7-12 feet of line to make a cast and the rod isn't loading with the rated line and you need to overline it, you bought the wrong rod.

I get the concept of overlining and I will tell you the one instance where I overline. What I don't get is this perception that overlining is necessary if casting anything less than thirty feet to make the rod work. There are plenty of rods that work extremely well at close distances with their rated line and the rod noted by the OP is one of them.

I overline when fishing for striped bass in heavy winds and I don't overline to load the rod I overline because I need more mass to move the fly (8-14 inch heavily dressed fly). A 12wt rod is overkill (9wt is adequate) but in heavy winds the 9wt line just doesn't cut it with larger flies. I do not need to make long casts, thirty feet at most, so a 12wt line or 550gr skagit head does what I need it to do, which is deliver a large, wind resistant fly to the target in heavy winds (20+mph).

After I posted this I saw Tomitrout's posting above. Excellent post.
 
sorry guys but no one said overlining is "necessary if casting anything less than thirty feet." I said that I find overlining often works better than using a rated line for very short casts. (the difference may be greater because I use relatively heavy Rio gold lines)

I have tried 2w and 3w lines on short casts, with most 2w rods, the 3w is better. shrug.

btw, tomis math says 10' of 4w = 40g and 10' of 5w = 47g. in other words, 17% heavier. in a heavyish rio gold the difference is probably greater for the first ten feet.

the idea that a fly rod wont work better with 17% more line weight on a very short cast doesn't add up -- particularly if you have tried it. maybe its the choppy way I cast, whatever.

And by far the best book I know on small stream fishing is Rosenbauer's Orvis Small Stream Fly Fishing. p116: [i]"when buying a small stream rod, unless you know it was made for small streams, it's best to try the rod with the rated line size plus one size heavier. If the rod was made for longer casts, the heavier line will bring out its action at shorter distances and may be perfect."[/i] Sounds like he actually tried using a line one size heavier making short casts on the same rod: "you might want to invest in second line that is one size heavier just for small stream fishing."

sorry but I'll take my own experience and rosenbauer's view over speculation here..


 
K-bob, thank you for confirming what some of us have been saying. I quote your Orvis quote.

If the rod was made for longer casts, the heavier line will bring out its action at shorter distances and may be perfect."

Read my first post. Some rods are made for distance and don't perform well at short ranges while other rods are made for short ranges. The example comparing a Winston BiiiX and Sage ONE nine foot 4wt rods is a perfect example (both rated fast action). The Winston will perform at short distances with a 4wt line because that's what it is made to do while the Sage will not because that's not what it was made to do. The Sage rod is a high line speed rod that is specifically designed to come alive with 25-30 feet of line so if you fish short ranges and bought the Sage rod and then overline it in order to use it, you bought the wrong rod just as if you fish fifty foot distances and bought the Winston rod, you bought the wrong rod. Rods made for short ranges don't need to be overlined and rods made for long range really are the wrong rod for short range fishing so if that's the rod you bought for short range fishing, you bought the wrong rod.

Going back to short range, if you are using 2-3 feet of line from the tip the line is irrelevant because you're not really loading the rod anyway. If you have 7-12 feet of line from the tip, a rod designed for short range work will load and work perfectly with the rated line.

The rod in question is a short range rod and does not need to be overlined. That is the point.
 
"Rods made for short ranges don't need to be overlined and rods made for long range really are the wrong rod for short range fishing so if that's the rod you bought for short range fishing, you bought the wrong rod."

Market realities dictate that most fly rods are made to toss more than a dozen feet of fly line. I can just a standard buy one for tiny PA native trout streams - in my case, 6'9"-7', 4pc, not too expensive, 4pc., alignment markers, etc - and tweak its short-range casting with heavier lines.
 
and tweak its short-range casting with heavier lines.

And I guess my contention is why not just adjust your casting stroke to skip all of this over/underline song and dance?

Say in the 4 vs 5wt example, with 15' of line out, are you able to adjust your cast and make a decent presentation @ 10'? Are you also able to make the adjustments to present to a fish @ 20'? Able to do both without needing to change lines to 'tweak' your rod's performance?

If so, that 5' +/- change in line length you're dealing with affects the way the rod loads much more than going up or down one weight.

So if you're able to successfully adjust your cast to cover that range of 10-20' of line off the tip, then why do you think you really need to overline a rod? You have the ability to make the adjustment yourself and you do it all the time without realizing it. You shouldn't have to 'tweak' anything...which is why I think the whole over/under lining thing is bunk (or at least a band aid to cover a poor choice made at the cash register).
 
"I think the whole over/under lining thing is bunk"

Rosenbuaer knows a lot about small stream fishing, he has tried overlining rods for short casts, and as he notes, it can work quite well. Works great for me as well.





 
very good discussion of overlining a 2w for shorter casts below. source is utyer on the fly tying forum... no wonder "3.5 weight" rio gold lines work for me on very short casts w/ 2 wt rods.

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=35515

"The "weight" of a fly line is based on the weight of the first 30 feet of the line (give or take a little.) So to provide enough weight to properly load a rod, you need to have that 30 feet out past the rod tip as you cast. That is where the optimum balance between the line and the rod will be. You can cast most any rod (regardless of line size) with either more or less than that 30 foot length of line out. You need to use a little more power in your casting stroke with shorter lines to load the rod, and with a LOT of line out you can use less and the extra weight of the line will load the rod. Most weight forward lines will have a belly (heavier) section that is at least 35 to 45 feet long. Some lines will have long belly sections up to about 60 feet. For each 12 feet of extra line out past the rod, you are in fact loading the rod with the next heavier line size. So if you start with a 2 weight line and cast with 55 feet of line in the air, you are now overlining the rod with something equivalent to a 3 to 4 weight line. ANY rod can be overlined, in the example above you can see that most rods are in fact overlined when longer casts are made.

If your planning on fishing a rod in “tight quarters” on small streams, you would not usually have much line past the rod tip. In those conditions it makes sense to overline the rod with a heavier line. Just remember that it will begin to overpower the rod when you have a lot of line in the air. Any rod will cast a range of weights, and any rod will finally reach a point where it cannot handle the weight of either more line out (in the cast) or a heavier weight.

Starting with a 2 weight, it would be properly loaded with about 20’ of a three weight or 12 feet of a 4 weight. Just remember that by starting with a heavier line size you can reach a point when the rod cannot handle the weight. When overlining, it’s better to use a WF (weight forward) line rather than a DT (double taper) line..."
 
How To Choose the Right Fly Line Weight
BY LEFTY KREH


Let me begin by saying that rod manufacturers design rods for the average person to use under average conditions. So unfortunately, most fly fishermen use only one weight of line on their favorite rod.

Written on the rod blank or handle is a code number which indicates the line that the rod manufacturer suggests is best for most customers; i.e., 6 line. To most fly anglers, this means that they should use nothing but a 6 weight line with this rod. But to get the full potential from different fishing situations, you may want to consider using several line sizes on your rod — perhaps varying as much as two line sizes from the one suggested on the rod.

Manufacturers know your rod may be used in a host of fishing situations, but they can’t judge your casting style and fishing skills. So when they place a recommended line number on your rod, it is implied that it’s for average fishing conditions. First, understand that you’re not going to damage a fly rod using fly line a little lighter or heavier than is recommended. Certainly, at times, the rod will fish better if different line sizes are used.

Match line weight to conditions
Let me cite several examples of when you might want to use various line weights on the same rod for different fishing conditions you may encounter.

First, if you fish a swift, tumbling mountain brook, you can use a rather short leader with a dry fly. A leader of 7-1/2 feet in length would probably do the best job. But if you fish for trout with the same outfit and dry fly on a calm spring creek, beaver pond or quiet lake, that short leader could prevent you from catching many fish. While many fishermen automatically know that on calmer water they have to use longer leaders, many of them don’t really probe any deeper into "why" they need a longer leader.

It isn’t the leader’s length that’s so important. In calm water, what frightens the trout is the line falling to the surface. The longer the leader, the farther away from the fly is the splashdown of the line.

But with a longer leader, the more difficult it is to cast and there is a reduction in accuracy. Thus, a 9-foot leader is more accurate and easier to turn over than a 15-footer. Considering this, plus the fact that the splashdown of the line is what is frightening the trout, there is a simple solution. Use a fly line one size lighter than the rod manufacturer recommends. Jim Green, who has designed fly rods for years and is a superb angler, mentioned to me more than three decades ago that he almost always used a line one size lighter when fishing dry flies where the trout were spooky or the water was calm. I tried it and have routinely followed his advice. So, for example, if you are using a six weight rod, you can drop down to a five weight line with no problem. In fact, in very delicate fishing conditions, I often drop down two sizes in line weights. There is a reason.

Weight and speed need to vary
Fly rods are designed to cast a particular weight of line — with a good bit of line speed. If you drop down a line size, you benefit in two ways. One, the line is going to alight on the water softer than a heavier line. Two, because it is not as heavy, it doesn’t develop as much line speed. A line traveling at high speed often comes to the water with a heavier impact than one that is moving slower. Even with a line two sizes lighter, you can still cast a dry fly or nymph far more distance than what is called for in delicate trout fishing situations. So you don’t hamper yourself at all by using a line lighter than the rod suggests. Best of all, you can now use a shorter leader, since impact on the surface has been lessened.

There is a second situation where a lighter than normal line will help you if you are a fairly good caster. The wind is blowing and you need to reach out to a distant target. Many try to solve this common problem by using a line one size heavier. The usual thinking is that a heavier line allows them to throw more weight and, they hope, get more distance. Actually, going to a heavier line means that they complicate the problem.

On a cast, the line unrolls toward the target in a loop form. The larger the loop, the more energy is thrown in a direction that is not at the target. When fishermen overload a fly rod with a line heavier than the manufacturer calls for, they cause the rod to flex more deeply, which creates larger loops on longer casts. Overloading the rod wastes casting energy by not directing it at the target.

If you switch to a lighter line, you may not have enough weight outside the rod tip to cause the rod to load or flex properly — if you hold the normal amount of line outside the rod during casting. But if you extend this lighter line about 10 feet or a little more outside the rod than you normally would for this cast under calm conditions, you can cast a greater distance into the wind. By extending the additional amount of lighter line outside the rod, you cause it to flex as if you were false casting the normal length of the recommended line size.

Since the rod is now flexing properly, it will deliver tight loops, but the lighter line is thinner. This means that there will be less air resistance encountered on the cast.

If you are forced to cast a longer distance into the wind, switch to one size lighter line and extend a little more line outside the rod tip than you normally would. This means, of course, that you need to be able to handle a longer line during false casting. But the line that is lighter than the rod calls for will let you cast farther into the breeze.

Heavier line is often necessary
There are situations where using a line heavier than the rod calls for will also aid in casting and catching fish, such as when fishing small streams for trout. Where pools are short and casts are restricted in distance, a heavier line can be just the right answer. For example, on many brook trout streams, the pool may be only 10 or 15 feet long and you are forced to use a leader that is at least 7-1/2 feet long. That means that only a few feet of your fly line — the weight that loads or flexes the rod — is outside the rod tip. When fishing where distance is very short and only a few feet of fly line are outside the rod tip, it is important to switch to a line that is heavier. For example, if you were using a rod designed for a four-weight line and had to cast most of the time at targets less than 20 feet, placing a five- or even a six-weight line on the rod would let you load the rod, and casting would be much easier.

This same principle applies when you are bass fishing in the southern swamps. Often, you are casting in small, winding creeks, or where there is a lot of brush immediately behind you. This also holds true when fishing the backcountry of Florida for snook, where you are close to the target and backcast area is limited. If you are using a rod designed to throw an eight-weight line and you’re fishing at 30 to 40 feet from the target area and the backcast area is less than that, a nine-weight line will permit you to cast much better because the heavier line will load up the rod and let it flex.

Heavily weighted lines, like the Wet Cel III or Uniform Sink +, can and should often be used in one to two sizes heavier than the rod calls for because, for some reason, a line one size heavier seems to improve distance casting. Try one and you’ll see what I mean.

Use shooting TAPERS for greater distance
Finally, consider shooting tapers (also called "heads"), which are generally used to obtain greater distance. When casting with normal line, if you cast well, you never hold just 30 feet of line outside the rod tip to get distance. Instead, you false cast with considerably more than 30 feet of line outside. When using a shooting head, try using one that’s a size heavier than you usually do and you’ll be pleasantly surprised at the distance you gain.

So don’t limit yourself to the standard guidelines given by rod manufacturers. Experiment with different line weights for special fishing conditions. You will be pleased with the results.


Link to source: http://www.scientificanglers.com/plan-your-trip/fly-fishing-tips/how-choose-right-fly-line-weight-lefty-kreh
 
Tomit, you need to adjust cast, agreed.

But a couple of things. Its not a pure weight conversion. Momentum has a large effect (technically, impulse, not momentum). On a 30 foot back cast, all that weight doesn't hit suddenly. It hits over period of time, gradual build as the line straightens out. With a shorter cast, you have less weight, but it loads over a shorter time. The difference in force the rod feels between short and long cast is far less than your math would predict. Which is why you can get away with a "matched" line. But it also means a larger line weight will close the remaining gap by a greater % than your math would predict.

And our cast adjustments are mostly doing the same. Instead of a smooth back cast, when in short distance situations I'm trying to make the load more sudden. Often its a "snap" cast where you let line hang in the air around, not behind you. On the forward stroke it yanks suddenly, like a boat catching up to a loose water ski rope. The momentary load is far greater than the weight. And adding weight increases that load far more than the added weight. Roll casts do the same, and add resistance from the water. Often I will even straighten out the line behind me and lay it down, especially in swift current. Just let it hang in a riffle. The force of the current can help load the rod.

Its not an either - or thing regarding adjusting the cast or adding weight. You do both, and they increase each others effectiveness.

The trade off is when you have to cast longer distances again. But again, we're doing this only to rods that will never be asked to do that. I'm not saying its magic and suddenly short casts become super easy. I'm saying it helps.

Better is better, even if only slightly better. There is no advantage to not doing it. Remember, we're doing this to rods that will never come close to a 30 foot cast. We have big stream rods too, and we don't over line those.
 
Follow up...I ended up putting 4weight line on

I took this rod out to a small potter brookie stream today. It was perfect when casting from my knees 5-10 feet and the short rod was great for tight corners. It was breezy today tho and I had a hard time in the open with casts over 12'. My leader would just pile up with the breeze in my face...life with a short 3wt I guess. I was also having trouble getting a soft presentation in open areas/longer casts too but I think it was because I was trying too hard to punch through wind
 
When you face high winds, you really have to drive your forward cast hard. Don't aim for the water (in any condition), just drive it hard into the wind and keep your casts as low as possible.
 
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