Otter Creek Stream Restoration?

Those are not even close to being a migration barrier. With that said, no one should be dredging all those rocks out of the stream bed for any purpose. Those rocks make up most of the cover for fish in those streams. I agree that the warming effect could be an issue, but not sure. It also bothers me that the same thing happened on other streams that Jeff mentioned. I think I know where the ones on Trout Run are, if so they were there in April. Fwiw I caught trout immediately above, in between, and immediately below the two dams.
 

Should we be blaming:

Hippies who smoke pot? Or good old boys who drink beer?

We need to get this important question settled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey at least we know it wasn't done by Rolex wearing elitists
 
sarce wrote:
Those are not even close to being a migration barrier. With that said, no one should be dredging all those rocks out of the stream bed for any purpose. Those rocks make up most of the cover for fish in those streams. I agree that the warming effect could be an issue, but not sure. It also bothers me that the same thing happened on other streams that Jeff mentioned. I think I know where the ones on Trout Run are, if so they were there in April. Fwiw I caught trout immediately above, in between, and immediately below the two dams.

Where you likely would have caught none had the dams not been there. The styles are not conducive to long term habitat but make no mistake, habitat improvement includes deeper water on shallow stretches which involves grade control that these dams create.

The main issue is that they could very well when blown out create mid channel bars that become vegetated and create split channels eroding the stream banks because they are softer than the obstruction.

Removing the centers is the way to go. It will turn them into point deflectors on the first 2" rain.

Also its not that I approve of the actions taken by these stoners but this is bedload and bedload get transported and deposited naturally. often it is more random and becomes cemented to the stream channel creating difficult to move and long term shallow flats. By removing these thalweg stones the bed is loosened and a good scouring flood will flush deeper, push these stones to the sides and improve the habitat in this area.

Some areas of Otter in the lower reaches are flowing right over bedrock and 40 ft wide. This is Otters challenge. To be narrowed and have bedload added to the natural grade control.

Who knows they may win conservationist of the year award next year....look out Bill A. ! J/K of course.
 
troutbert wrote:
HopBack wrote:

If you are familiar with the area you know that it was probably done by some good old boys who just wanted to have a place to drink some beers and cool off in the heat of the summer.

Should we be blaming:

Hippies who smoke pot? Or good old boys who drink beer?

We need to get this important question settled. ;-)

Since its here in York County, its probably good old hippies who smoke pot AND drink beer. They're obviously willing to schlep a lot of rock though - we need to teach them how to build a proper rock vane so we get some nice plunge pools out of the deal.
 
It could be the same people(aliens) that cut in the "crop circles"... This too may remain one of the great mysteries of our time!

 
WG. you solved everything ! The Moderators are responsible for the "Crop Circles"
 
afishinado wrote:
Alnitak wrote:
Nonsense words.

G?! :-o

Nope. I know enough dirty stoners to know none of them would put this much effort forth when they could simply stay inside the AC and get baked.

 
I was in a foul mood when I wrote that, but hey, I tend to call them like I see them. I suspect Trout Run bugs me the most because there are so few wild brook trout streams left, and to see one of the few get messed with that way just rubs me the wrong way. There are plenty of natural pools there and the stream has done fine without us messing with it for millennia. There's more than just trout in there as well, and the stream isn't just for those who want to dam it and swim in it. It doesn't need any "help" or improvement from us.

Of course, that's above and beyond the fact that what they're doing is expressly not allowed on the private preserves I mentioned. The Lancaster County Conservancy has pretty clear rules around use of their properties. People like the ones who've built the dams--who flaunt the rules and mess things up--its their action at that all to often end up getting places closed to access for everyone. There's plenty of other deeper water nearby to swim in and no need to mess with Trout Run. Part of the reason I and many others go to places like that is to enjoy some part of nature that is relatively untouched by mankind, and that's key to the mission of the Conservancy. Its just disrespectful to the Conservancy and all of the others who enjoy the property to do this. Oh, and the other two locations I mentioned in Lancaster are also both Conservancy properties.

I have no issue with the run of the mill pot smokers and I'll enjoy a beer with the best of them, even in the stream. There are also times and places to get involved in altering stream structure, particularly to restore damage we've already done to a stream. That said, I do get annoyed with those who feel that they have some special right to mess with nature all while claiming to love it more than the rest of us. The rock "shrines" all over Trout Run were a typical touch; like I said earlier these aren't your typical slacker weed smokers. It's a different crowd, and they would pride themselves on not sitting in the AC but in being out in nature.
 
foxtrapper1972 wrote:

Should we be blaming:

Hippies who smoke pot? Or good old boys who drink beer?

We need to get this important question settled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey at least we know it wasn't done by Rolex wearing elitists

Hey, I'll have you know that:

1) I'm not an elitist, whatever the heck that means

2) It's a fake rolex. Actually its a fake hand and arm I use to pose fish for pictures.

Passive agressive much? ;-)
 
Alnitak wrote:
I have no issue with the run of the mill pot smokers and I'll enjoy a beer with the best of them, even in the stream. There are also times and places to get involved in altering stream structure, particularly to restore damage we've already done to a stream. That said, I do get annoyed with those who feel that they have some special right to mess with nature all while claiming to love it more than the rest of us. The rock "shrines" all over Trout Run were a typical touch; like I said earlier these aren't your typical slacker weed smokers. It's a different crowd, and they would pride themselves on not sitting in the AC but in being out in nature.

Like several others, I'm skeptical on the Hippie Hypothesis.

The good old boy hypothesis seems more likely.




 
Elitist definition-.


favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.


Read your post again Alnitak.-I call em like I see em too.


 
troutbert wrote:
Alnitak wrote:
I have no issue with the run of the mill pot smokers and I'll enjoy a beer with the best of them, even in the stream. There are also times and places to get involved in altering stream structure, particularly to restore damage we've already done to a stream. That said, I do get annoyed with those who feel that they have some special right to mess with nature all while claiming to love it more than the rest of us. The rock "shrines" all over Trout Run were a typical touch; like I said earlier these aren't your typical slacker weed smokers. It's a different crowd, and they would pride themselves on not sitting in the AC but in being out in nature.

Like several others, I'm skeptical on the Hippie Hypothesis.

The good old boy hypothesis seems more likely.


OK, on Otter Creek, perhaps it was the local good old boy crowd. On Trout Run and Tucquan, I've never seen the good old boys hanging out there, but I have seen the modern-day hippie crowd regularly on the stream swimming in these holes as has my nephew and another friend who I know fishes on those streams. All three of us have knocked holes in the center multiple times this year only have them filled back in when we return.

I've also never known the good old boy crowd to erect stacked rock shrines. In the modern-day hippie crowd a lot them do this under a belief its got some sort Buddhist/Native American symbolism. Look, I'm friends with a lot of these folks, so there's nothing elitist about it, but they are disproportionately the ones that do this. Do a bit of a search and you'll see that its a problem in a lot of national parks and next thing you know tourists start copying it too. What I don't like is the folks that think they can do this to shared resource and can't simply just leave it alone so others can enjoy it.

Regardless of who does it, that's the problem--its messing with a resource for a short-term selfish reason.
 
HopBack wrote:

... this is private land which is open to the public because of stocking.

I see it worded that way so often on here, but it's kid of bass aackwards.

It's likely stocked because it is not posted. Not the other way around.
 
wgmiller wrote:
It could be the same people(aliens) that cut in the "crop circles"... This too may remain one of the great mysteries of our time!

LOL! I was going to suggest that.
 
To change the topic away from who is doing it, I'd like to comment on the presence of the dams in Trout Run in particular.

The native brook trout found in Trout Run do not need any "help" from man creating dams or other structures. That stream has luckily avoided manmade degradation that would require any such restoration work. Indeed, the large pools of still water created by the dams and the the barren stream bottoms devoid of the cover created by large rocks are both problematic for these native trout. The dams that I have seen there in the later part of the summer are not the smaller simpler ones someone mentioned seeing there earlier in the year. These are large structures and they just appeared in the latter part of July. The same with the stacked rock shrines.

The biggest dam stood about two feet high and utilized very large rocks stacked very well, with large flat rocks forming a vertical wall on the upstream side. One of them was at a large pool that already is mostly bedrock and thus has little cover for the brook trout. Since the dam was constructed, I have not seen any brook trout in that pool, whereas in the past it typically held at least several. All of the best hiding habitat has been removed for use in the dam and the water is now a dead still pool rather than a slow but steady flow. If you know brook trout, you know that this is not a good thing.

Yes, its likely a large storm event would flush these out. However, in the meantime the pools are filling with sediment and good habitat is being destroyed. The natural beauty is being destroyed as well.

Some of the "shrines" made on the stream are quite substantial as well. Roughly three weeks ago when I was last there, I found half a dozen of them in the lower stretch. Several were made with large flat rocks as long as 3 feet precariously stacked on end, with several additional rocks balanced on top. While these would likely topple in the first good winter/spring storm, they are an eyesore and they remove good stream habitat while doing nothing to "help" the stream in any way.

In Fishing Creek in southern Lancaster there aren't any native trout, but it is the home of a state threatened species of fish, one only found in a few streams in PA and MD, and one likely to be listed under the Endangered Species Act. The damming is not conducive to this species, nor is it of any use to the wild or stocked trout in that area.

If anyone else fishes at Trout Run or Fishing Creek and would like to help me tear these down, please let me know. I'm in contact with the Conservancy and will hopefully organize a day or two to clean them up.
 
both are on my shopping list for fall so to speak, so i'm in.

mrs GB is away the last weekend of Sept and first weekend of October.

i hope that we can use the rocks in a positive way, to help the stream rather than degrade it.
 
Alnitak wrote:
its messing with a resource for a short-term selfish reason.

Kind of like FFing?

In the case of the Lanc. Co. Conservancy properties The Hippies (both new age and old school)/Good Ole Boys/Aliens/whoever are allowed to use the resource for their own enjoyment, provided they do so legally and within the rules set out by the landowner.

If you fish small streams a lot, which many on this site and participating in this thread do, you see these small (yes, I’d call the ones pictured in the OP on Otter Creek small) dams pop up all the time. Some actually make some nice habitat, some don’t do much either way, and some may ruin some otherwise pretty decent habitat. The next time you go back, half the time they’re gone thanks to a nice rain though. It is kind of annoying, and would we as conservation minded anglers do it…no…but let’s not blow it out of proportion. The fish are fine. If they can’t find suitable habitat where they formerly could they have tails and fins and can swim…they move. These dams are little micro habitats on these streams…they don’t affect the whole stream, and they don’t appreciably warm the water in most cases where there is proper canopy coverage…which both Trout Run and Tucquan have…I’m admittedly not familiar with Otter, but on the maps it’s a much larger watershed than Trout Run and Tucquan and would likely be on the border temperature wise anyway.

FWIW, my official vote in the “who done it” is also Aliens, or ghosts…”No human being would stack rocks like this.” – Dr. Peter Venkman.
 
Swattie87 wrote:
Alnitak wrote:
its messing with a resource for a short-term selfish reason.

Kind of like FFing?

In the case of the Lanc. Co. Conservancy properties The Hippies (both new age and old school)/Good Ole Boys/Aliens/whoever are allowed to use the resource for their own enjoyment, provided they do so legally and within the rules set out by the landowner.

If you fish small streams a lot, which many on this site and participating in this thread do, you see these small (yes, I’d call the ones pictured in the OP on Otter Creek small) dams pop up all the time. Some actually make some nice habitat, some don’t do much either way, and some may ruin some otherwise pretty decent habitat. The next time you go back, half the time they’re gone thanks to a nice rain though. It is kind of annoying, and would we as conservation minded anglers do it…no…but let’s not blow it out of proportion. The fish are fine. If they can’t find suitable habitat where they formerly could they have tails and fins and can swim…they move. These dams are little micro habitats on these streams…they don’t affect the whole stream, and they don’t appreciably warm the water in most cases where there is proper canopy coverage…which both Trout Run and Tucquan have…I’m admittedly not familiar with Otter, but on the maps it’s a much larger watershed than Trout Run and Tucquan and would likely be on the border temperature wise anyway.

FWIW, my official vote in the “who done it” is also Aliens, or ghosts…”No human being would stack rocks like this.” – Dr. Peter Venkman.

I'd consider FF to a be a bit of stretch comparison to damming up the stream, especially at the scale these dams are, but whatever. I'll remind those that reply that I pointed out that don't just fish these locations, I love to hike and photograph them. Regardless, all of that's beside the point. As I've pointed out before:

The rules of use for the Conservancy properties DO NOT allow alteration of the stream, or any part of the habitat. It's quite clear.

As for the fish swimming to better habitat, some of the larger dams are significant upstream barriers, and thats the point. Significant enough that barring a large storm they will not be easily washed away. On a very small stream the spawning habitat/best summer lies may require movement that is not feasible with the dams in place under low water conditions.

We've trashed up the other routes these fish used to have to move around within and between watersheds. They can't easily leave the tiny streams they are now confined to. Relative to Otter Creek, Trout Run and Tucquan are very small. On a stream like Otter, that dam may not be that big, but Trout Run is substantially smaller, and dam that large--and the recent ones are that large--is a more significant barrier.
A 2-3' dam on one of those streams is not insignificant, and unlike the natural dams and barriers that form, they do not have water flowing over them or through larger gaps in them. The rocks are stacked and stuffed tight enough that a larger fish would likely have a tough time wiggling through them--again, on the recent dams I've found on Trout Run, Tucquan and Fishing Creek.

The point is that the dams are unnecessary and violate the rules of use for the Conservancy properties. I'll leave Otter and other "public" streams out of this, as that may or may not apply, although it still bothers me that people simply can't leave well enough alone and enjoy the natural streams for what they are--but that last part is a view I realize not everyone shares. On the other hand, I have friends and family that join me in hiking these locations, and like me they've all expressed dismay that a beautiful natural location has been altered.

I'll change my vote to either aliens or stream trolls. Although aliens has a certain appeal.
 
I'm not saying rules weren't broken by the dam builders...just that they're allowed to be there and temporarily use the resource, within the rules. FFing is just one potential "use" of the resource.

I have not seen the dam you speak of on Trout Run as I have not fished it this year. That being said, unless it was constructed by someone well versed in masonry, I'm rather certain fish could find a way through it...be it in the search of better habitat or to spawn. I mean would having to wiggle through a tight space stop you? The fish there are small Brookies...they can cram themselves in to pretty tight spaces. Watch one dive under a rock after you release it. Who cares if the stockers in that stream can make it through?
 
Top