OT Forum

[krayfish2]

It was inevitable for people to become offended when ones passion or beliefs were involved. The rule among me and any of my fishing partners.....no political or religious discussions. I've seen good friendships end over such arguments.

As for OT, not necessary IMHO. For those that are missing it, I'll apologize for participating and being so abrasive.

After the Catskill Jam, I'll give myself a "timeout" until 2017.

 

[CVangler]

Exact reason I didn't really comment on the OT forum. Do I have my opinions? Sure I do. But no matter what side I am on, there will be plenty of folks who disagree and will argue with me. So, this is a fly fishing forum and that is what is should really only be in my opinion.

 

[PocketWater]

If you wanted a couple other sections that don't specifically deal with fly fishing, maybe just give them defined themes like Hunting or Sports or Camping/Gear or Food or Travel. Anything talked about outside those themes can be deleted. Just a thought.

I also just want to thank you for having and working hard to maintain this forum. I have learned a lot about fly fishing and enjoy talking with my fellow fly fishers here.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

The Ot forum was one of the more interesting social experiments I've been involved with and I will miss it. I learned a lot. Thanks for hosting it.

Now all us obnoxious, argumentative characters will migrate over to the regular board. Look out here we come!

 

[franklin]

Dave, whatever you decide or rules you set I'll certainly respect and follow.

I do think there are OT topics that have value to PAFF forum members. Especially some with state or regional relevance such as hunting, golf, shooting, camping, etc. Maybe keep the politics, religion, economics out.

For what it is worth the first time I noticed the warning notice was about five minutes before the threads started to go away. Not complaining personally but maybe some others were also unaware of your discontent with the tone of many of the posts/threads.

I always had the attitude that what happens in OT stays in OT but I've noticed some carryover into other sections of the site and even into other forum sites. The tone of some of the OT threads probably has a negative impact on the comradery that otherwise would come from such a great site where we gather for a common passion.

 

[bikerfish]

Dave, your going to make us all talk about fishing and stuff now!!! jeez, some folks might actually go hit a stream! yikes!!!
BTW, if people think the OT was bad, they should visit the off-topic section of the motorcycle adventure forum I'm on!!! I don't even venture there, and it's impossible to offend me!
Fish on!!!

 

[PennypackFlyer]

I am afraid that removing the OT Forum will only cause those that feel the need to vent will do so on other forums more-so.

The problem with banning is that the person can pick a new title - thus continue their poor behavioral attitudes.

 

[FarmerDave]

Chaz wrote:
How about this we're all supposed to be fly fisherman and communicate on a friendly basis. Anyone not communicating nice, be banned. I saw the posted warning and I only went on the OT to see if there was a post about the Championship of PA game.
Hopefully I never offend anyone.

Good for you Chaz, i saw it too, but not before responding a couple times. But I wasn't insulting to anyone, at least not that day. ;-) In fact, I wouldn't have even seen it if Dave hadn't bumped it back to the top. that was my point.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you. We need to try to get along. But it is always best to at least try to see things from other perspectives. You saw it right away, I didn't. What are the odds others didn't see it right away.

Race is always a contentious subject. We should stop the race baiting from BOTH sides.

 

[FarmerDave]

I'm old, and from a time where people could have a spirited discussion without needing to crawl into a safe space. I like to think I have thick skin. To me, a micro-aggression would involve a pointy object. But I realize times have changed.

I'm also not afraid to apologize for going over the line, which I have on more than one occasion. but I am not going to apologize for being me.

We all need to be understanding. We are all not the same.

That said, we have safe spaces on this board. They are called "not the OT forum." Some get it, some don't.

Anyway, it was suggested by a few people that maybe we should just do away with the OT forum.

Check out the traffic on Steelheadsite.com since they eliminated non-fishing related content.

15 years ago, it was booming, and then...

Be careful what you wish for.

there has to be a happy medium.

Look, for many reasons, I don't get to fish much anymore. I still try to contribute on fishing related forums, but I also like to discuss other things with people who have common interests.

Do away with the OT entirely, and there is a pretty good change that I will lose interest and gradually go away. I'm sure that would make a few people happy though.

Not a threat. Just reality. People will lose interest and I am probably not alone.

 

[franklin]

I participate on several internet forums on topics I have an interest in. Some are more civil than others. Some go as far as a special section with absolutely no rules. (And I think they suffer because of it.)

I don't think that having an OT section is absolutely necessary to have a great forum that serves it's primary focus subject. While I hold PAFF high on my rank of well run, well behaved, and also well moderated forums going I would hold Bushcrat USA as the cream of the crop. No OT (at least that I ever known), very few squabbles among participants. Very positive conversations and when there is a debate it is the subject being debated it is done in a respectful manor without any negativity towards those who disagree.

I point that site out as one from which much may learned.

I'm not one that thinks the absence of political debate in an OT area would lead to more "squabbles" in the primary forum sections. I have confidence that the forum members will not let that happen. I don't think it has in the past and see no reason it should going forward.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

Besides spot burning and bragging and whether to overline or not there's only so much to say about flyfishing....

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Your right ,Dave. People back in the day discussed things like politics and religion and I even remember politics coming up in the preachers sermons. Today is a lot different time. Things got to personal,IMO. Maybe after Nov. 8 things will be better?
I visit the Florida Sportsman forum. It's far worse then the OT here. GG

 

[franklin]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
Your right ,Dave. People back in the day discussed things like politics and religion and I even remember politics coming up in the preachers sermons. Today is a lot different time. Things got to personal,IMO. Maybe after Nov. 8 things will be better?
I visit the Florida Sportsman forum. It's far worse then the OT here. GG

GG, I think both those topics could get a spirited debate in an OT forum.

The bottom line is what would Dave like to achieve on the site? Which ever way he wants to go I will support and continue to be a forum contributor. And when/if inputs are solicited I will also try to make a useful contribution.

 

[DaveKile]

FarmerDave wrote:
I have a suggestion.

Yesterday was only the second time I logged on in about 4 weeks. Had nothing to do with the site though. Was just very busy.

I agree that the racial stuff was getting way out of hand, but it takes at least two to tango.

Oh yea, the suggestion. Dave, about your warning that you posted in the OT. I didn't see it right away. In fact I didn't see it until hours later on a subsequent visit to the site. Here is the problem. Like most people, I start at the top and work my way down. I sometimes do review an entire thread before responding to it, but I don't review every thread before responding to the first one. By the time I logged on, the warning had moved down the page. Even Jacks "Slippery Jack" thread and Maurice's "slippery pete" response were above that and BTW posted an hour or so after the warning. ... for example.

So I simply didn't see the warning right away, and of course the ugly threads were at the top. I suspect others didn't see it either which might explain people ignoring the warning.

Fortunately for me, I was still behaving myself since the last time Maurice slapped my Suillus luteus.;-)

Two things.

1. Is there any way that you can post warnings like that at the top of the page for a day or two, so it is the first thread everyone looks at and no excuse for missing it.

2. Another thing that might work is post a warning at the end of an offending thread and then lock that thread so nobody else can respond. I've seen that on other sites and it seemed to work.

OK, here is another suggestion. If you are planning to ban anyone because you feel they ignored your warning, please take into consideration that they might not have seen it either.

I'm not interested in being a moderator. That job seems to really suck.

There were very very explicate special guidelines and pre-warnings that we created for the OT because of the nature of that forum. It was a sticky attached the top of the forum and there everyday...it was opened less than 200 times in six and 1/2 years.

 

[krayfish2]

Jack M wrote:
One man's nice is another man's naughty. This said, the question is why enable a forum that only seems to draw strife?
OT was founded to push the tendencies of posters to get off topic, specifically on those controversial topics such as religion, politics and sex, into a segregated forum. Those without the desire to see and read such topics, never were required to visit.

Don't often agree with you but this is some fantastic stuff

FarmerDave wrote:
I'm old, and from a time where people could have a spirited discussion without needing to crawl into a safe space. I like to think I have thick skin. I'm also not afraid to apologize for going over the line, which I have on more than one occasion. but I am not going to apologize for being me. We all need to be understanding. We are all not the same. That said, we have safe spaces on this board. They are called "not the OT forum." Some get it, some don't.

The bottom line is this is Dave’s site. He will set the rules for the forum and they will have to be followed. It’s pretty simple. I’ve been members or just a visitor of other forums. I’ve just been a visitor on The Drake for example and couldn’t participate. It was difficult to find a thread that wasn’t riddled with profanity or personal attacks. I figured it was a pretty tight nit group where constant busting on each other was their thing. Not my cup of tea and I’m sure it’s not right for most. I often wondered what the forum owner was thinking by allowing a wild west type of behavior.

In place of the OT, possibly having a food / travel / sports / vehicle sections might work. Yinzers can talk Stillers, Eagles fans can pontificate why they haven’t and probably never will win the super bowl, soccer fans can chat, golfers, tennis players or whatever.

My only real comment / observation is that you have groups on here that have known each other from the last 15 JAMS. They needle, argue, irritate each other to no end because they KNOW each other, understand it’s all in good fun while sometimes raising valid points. If you are an outsider (from that particular group) and try to enter in the spirited discussion, you may get ignored, lectured, belittled, etc. You step in with a valid point or a little needling of your own and it’s not viewed the same as if it came from a member of that particular group. God forbid you offend one of them as you’ll likely to be ganged up on. High school clique rings a bell to me. I have every right to be offended by something posted as the next guy. I’m sure I’ve offended others too. My skin just happens to be thicker than wet tissue paper. I may view other posts as immoral, unethical, illegal or against religious beliefs but have never considered running to moderator or site owner to share how offended I am. I have asked for mods to contact a person sending me BS messages and asked them to block him. No matter how good of a guy I am or how big an advocate I am for wild fisheries, the way I express myself has been an ongoing sticking point. If I’m not welcome, simply say so and I’d fade away as FarmerDave had said above. I’m not interested in walking around with the crosshairs fixed on my forehead just waiting. I’d rather just bow out.

I think it’s been pretty obvious that Fox and I have butted heads on some threads and in OT. He contacted me about coming to Catskill Jam. I wasn’t sure if there was a motive and would have no reason to what to fish with him, right? Well, I’m not afraid to share what I sent him via PM………

We are doing a 'get together' for the purpose of fishing and friendship. We fish hard. Not unusual to spend long hours on the river. By all means, you are welcome to attend. There are newbies and seasoned anglers in the group. The vets take the new guys out and get them on fish, share the river, history, knowledge of the system, etc. My intention is to make more fans of the river that will help in protecting the resource. Double edged sword as some attendees are just looking for free boat rides, free flies or free gear. Bury the hatchet? Who knows. If you start spewing political, religious or other opinions......probably not. I'm also sure I wouldn't be the only one not interested in such discussions when on a fishing focused vacation. If your intention is to show up and cause chaos, please don't come. If you'd like to meet some of the forum members and fish, please do come. Just don't be upset if some of these guys school you on the river.

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I never looked at the "sticky" (whatever that is?) Perhaps i should have?

I've viewed the whole OT thing as a foray into social media. It's really been interesting. I definitely felt an urge to stir the pot a bit. I also tried to be as honest as I could and also did not go out of my way to offend.

Saying I was coming to the jam was at first a joke but when i realized krayfish was really passionate about that river I realized that we have at least one thing in common and figured hey why not be open to seeing what goes on. Plus the idea of fishing out of a boat painted like a confederate flag thrills me. I like throwing myself into new experiences plus the idea of building bridges seems more hopeful than the opposite so why not. What's the worst that can happen...(I've been beaten up before!). The gist of my PM response was that i'm really looking forward to at least stopping by for a visit that weekend because i am curious about what you guys do and i have no intention of bringing up any controversial stuff. And I don't think anything that is said on this forum really negates the possibility of developing friendships etc in real life because most of us know the difference between online BS and the rest of life. I've actually met guys on the stream and when i revealed who i was they laughed and said they liked what i said on the forum....(which surprised me) ( I RARELY got that vibe on the OT).Well as they say it's all good. Hey I actually have several good friend who support Trump....what can I say.

 

[FarmerDave]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
Your right ,Dave. People back in the day discussed things like politics and religion and I even remember politics coming up in the preachers sermons. Today is a lot different time. Things got to personal,IMO. Maybe after Nov. 8 things will be better?
I visit the Florida Sportsman forum. It's far worse then the OT here. GG

I probably missed most of the really ugly stuff. I didn't even log on until after the stuff hit the fan. It was well after the warning was posted which explains why I missed it.

You are right about Nov 8. I thought about posting that it wouldn't be a bad idea to leave the OT forum down until after the election, but I figured Dave already thought of that.

Several people expressed that they don't like the OT forum, so they stay away from it. That makes perfect sense.

I tried Blue Moon and didn't like it. So I don't drink it.

A couple people said they don't like the OT, so it should be taken eliminated.

I don't like Blue Moon, therefore they should stop making it? Sorry, does not compute.

Ultimately, I will 100% support whatever Dave Kyle decides and be forever thankful for what he has done.

 

[FarmerDave]

dkile wrote:

There were very very explicate special guidelines and pre-warnings that we created for the OT because of the nature of that forum. It was a sticky attached the top of the forum and there everyday...it was opened less than 200 times in six and 1/2 years.

Yea, I know. I was one of those who read it. But it is not in the OT forum itself.

I think you know what I meant.

The special warning was brought up somewhere and the fact that it was ignored.. I don't remember where.

All I was saying is that if you were planning on banning anyone because they ignored that special warning that you put in the OT section, please consider that they might not have seen it.

If you decide to ban for repeated abuses, that's different.

Just don't ban me because I made a suggestion in this thread that you didn't like. ;-)

 

[foxtrapper1972]

I like Blue Moon. And I like fruit in it.

 

[Chaz]

Part of the problem is there are folks signed up that are only signed up to post on the OT Forum and couldn't care less about Fly-fishing. I'm not judging, just stating a fact, many folks that post there never post on the other forums, many other only on rare occassions.