Nothing is sacred

bikerfish,

My sentiments, too.

Maurice,

You beat me too it.

You two saved me a bunch of typing.

JayL et al.,

What exactly did you accomplish by flaming that guy right out of the blocks? I would guess you didn't persuade him to your opinion. And, let's be clear, we're talking OPINIONS here. You know what they say about opinions, right? Most of the stench is coming from you guys right now.

Had you gotten off (or fallen off) your oh-so-very-high-and-mighty soap box you may have recognized him as a fellow conservationist who was POed and venting. Then you would have had the opportunity to persuade him to your point of view.

You may have also seen he was essetially correct, but tactless in his delivery. You will see borish behavior from fly fishers, but NOT that kind (littering and wanton trout killing).

Maybe, with time and maturity you'll see it's not best to yell at someone and call them names just because you disagree with them.

BTW: I'm a part time spin fisher who fishes with a sparkle boat guy from time to time (like tomorrow, for instance). I bait fished until I was out of HS. I was also taught from a very early age not only to refrain from littering but to pick up after the selfish, lazy SOBs who litter. Littering is not exclusive to bait fishers. Take a close look along highways sometime...
 
FlySwatter wrote:

BTW: I'm a part time spin fisher who fishes with a sparkle boat guy from time to time (like tomorrow, for instance). I bait fished until I was out of HS. I was also taught from a very early age not only to refrain from littering but to pick up after the selfish, lazy SOBs who litter. Littering is not exclusive to bait fishers. Take a close look along highways sometime...
Click to expand...

Yes, but that highway litter just comes from those gas hogging, redneck pickup drivers... ;-)
 
tom,

I thougt it was from the crossover-driving soccer moms who don't like that icky trash in their trendy rides.

The redneck pickup guys accumulate trash in the cabs like a badge of honor (def. NOT talking about myself, there). :-o
 
I was just making the kind of stupid generalization that was made in the original post. Besides, she'd have to put her phone down to throw it out the window.
 
tom, I think Fly Swatter was doing the same in return....

Yes, it was the generalization many took offense at, not the actual message of ranting on littering and trout killing...
 
Flyswatter,

I told the truth. He sounded like an ***, and attacked a large group of people, many of whom are friends and family. I stand by it. Deal with it. You can't justify stereotyping and prejudice by calling it an opinion.

Telling someone they sound like an *** is exactly what you suggested... persuasion. It's not a personal attack. It's just an observation.

What did I accomplish? I stood up against what I saw to be a highly negative portrayal of the FF community. I doubt I accomplished much. I didn't expect to. I don't take myself that seriously, but I do say what's on my mind, and I'll defend it until someone can prove me wrong.

I'd be just as livid in simplefish's position. Call it the moral high road or whatever you wish, but I wouldn't pass a sweeping judgment in response. If that's a high horse, then I'm happy sitting on it. Maybe I'm just idealistic, but I don't think it's necessary to be looking for reasons to write off entire groups of people, especially on a public forum.

Speaking of the high horse... welcome aboard. Ironic ain't it?
 
JayL,

1. You did NOT tell any "truth" in calling hin an ***. You stated your opinion of his stereotyping.

2. The only thing you persuaded him to do is get POed and leave. If you care so much for the FF community (or more accurately, for how that community is percieved by others), then you should have attempted to convert him, not alienate him.

I should think you would have a more panoramic view from atop your high horse.

Now, having attacked you and put you on the defensive, how does it feel?

Just so you know, I agree that one should not stereotype. I live and act by that rule and I am teaching my son that value.

In these situations, one of my pet phrases is :Any time you make a gross generalization, you are in error (except for the one I just made). I believe that's true. I can certainly think of more harmful stereotypes (immigrants, the "other" political party, racial, religeous, etc.). Casting a$$-persions at bait dunkers seems to pale in comparison, don't you think?

Here's an alternat, less confromtational take: I know you were fishing behind some jerks, but let's not paint all bait fishers with the same brush. That diminishes all of us.

Pat,

You're right, of course. I'm a pick-up driver from a 3 pick-up family (dad, brother and me). Besides, having lived in South Carolina for 8 years, I can tell you PA 'rednecks" have nothing on some of the folks down there!
 
On the Internet, communication is more or less anonymous. Often people have a "Net" personality and a "face to face" personality. If we all try to treat people on the Net as we would if we were face-to-face with that person, the WWW would be a much friendlier place. Your opinions or thoughts need not change, just the tone.

Jay has sharp edges on-line, but in person, he's completely round... 🙂
 
FlySwatter,

It wouldn't be the first time I've been attacked. I love it. Arguing has a purpose, but it's also a game to me.

I'm certainly not offended, nor should I be.

Saying that he sounded like an *** is a subjective thing. To me, it's a fact. I highlighted it as such. He did sound like an ***.

As I said... telling someone that they're on a high horse requires a view from your own. 'tis a mighty steed you've got there. Puts my old seabiscuit to shame, but I work her hard. :lol:

It's not my fault he got butthurt and left. Arguments happen on message boards. I've had worse arguments with plenty of people on here, and later fished and drank beer with them. Hell, I've burned farmerdave in effigy once or twice, and still consider him a friend. It's just how it goes. If you make the jam, I'd be happy to continue this argument with you over a beer or two. /shrug
 
JayL,

You're def. NOT the first person to tell me that. I've been climing this horese for well over 4 decades! Afish is dead right! The conversation we are having would be different with body language, etc. in the mix.

I guess my ego is big enough that I was to persuade others to my point of view, not call them insulting names.

I guess it all depends on your goals.

Good fishing!
 
Yeah, Jay's personality is that he's gonna tell it like it is, but he won't hold it as a grudge. Thats cool, we could use more of that.

I like to think my personality is similar in person as it is on the board. The only difference is that I think through writing more than I do speaking. I tend to write my initial thoughts down, then critique them, and change them as necessary. It's how I analyze my own positions, and thus learn, and also a good way not to make stupid logical errors (like overgeneralization). But you don't have that option when expressing yourself verbally, once it's spoke, it's out there. So I may seem less measured in person.

So for a situation like simplefish. If he understands that he vastly overgeneralized when trying to make his point, I'm cool with that. Say so, try to make the point more rationally, and we're all friends again, just another case of anger getting the better of someone. If he truly holds that view, then I'm going to argue it tooth and nail, because I feel pretty clearly that its wrong. My personality can accept differences of opinion, but not bigotry and wrongness.
 
If I had to pick between speaking and writing, I'd choose writing. I'm better at it, and I enjoy it more. I'd also have no friends, because I'd have pissed them all off... which is why I'm glad it doesn't work that way. :lol:

I'm just a doofus that's anal about my words, and I refuse to cut corners with them.

Edit:

Pat's got it. Bigotry isn't a rational thing, which means you can't reason with it. It uses the same thought processes as faith and a few others... it's just an absolute in someone's mind. The fact that simplefish, greenweenie, and loum are wrong is self-evident... it's really not possible to convince them if they don't see it. I probably react crudely in situations like that, but it's how I am. As Mo alluded to, I think (and he knows me well enough), I can't resist an opportunity to let people know what I think.
 
ok lets throw out a "NEANDERTHAL BAIT FISHERMAN GENERALIZATION ON FLY FISHERMAN"

This is not me but i would love to hear his response to this one!

" I was baitfishing on an equal access stream and saw something that made me sick. some "YUPPY BUG FLIPPER" thought he was high and mighty and told me i littered on his favorite stream and told me to go fish for some stockies at a state stocked stream instead and immediatly leave this stream and not tell any of my friends about my new found wild trout stream."

I will not argue the point that you see a lot of bait containers on the streams here is a direct quote from my uncle who is an avid fly fisherman that sums this one up well. he took a very neutral approach.

"Only we have the responsibility as free human beings to keep our streams and entire outdoors litter free and trash free. This goes beyond "bait fishers" and "fly fishers". We all MUST do our part. Collect any trash on the stream or in the woods. Whatever method of angling we choose is our decision but it is everyone's responsibility to police the outdoors for the few who find it difficult to pick up their garbage and put it in their vest, no matter how they fish."

Enough said on this one dont want to tarnish my image on this great site.

i'm still with you Jay L
 
For what it is worth, this is why we have rules on personal attacks and insults. While I agree telling someone they are an *** is different from telling they sound like an ***, in truth, they both sting the target of such comments and they result in both parties and others taking sides, justifying their behavior and defending or attacking one another even more.

Before posting something that challenges another poster, ask yourself if it might make your point a little too strongly. Sometimes the answer is "NO, it makes my point just the way I think it ought to be made." I can respect that, and I do it myself. Then, on the other side, when insulted, ask yourself whether returning the insult or explaining ones self would be a better response.

Ultimately, these kinds of disagreements are of great interest, value and fun, and we don't want to eliminate all controversy, just want to keep the board as friendly as possible, particularly for newcomers.
 
I actually had a situation on Spring Creek a few years back. I saw one, then two dead browns come floating by me. Yes, above me were some bait fishermen who clearly had no clue what they were doing, and they were deep hooking fish. I was a little disgusted, but I swallowed my pride a little and walked up.

I told them they were killing fish, to which they immediately became a little defensively aggressive. I then followed it up with "I'm not against bait fishing, in fact I do it often." The second part was a little white lie, or at least an exaggeration, but one used to try to appear as "one of them" instead of "one of those holier than thou fly fishermen who think they're better than everyone else", and it worked.

I found out quickly that this was their first fishing experience for trout, their experiences were mostly panfish, crappie, and the occasional bass. They didn't know the stream wasn't stocked and depended on wild fish. I told them that you can avoid deep hooking by striking as soon as the fish bites instead of "letting them take it." And that if a fish did still swallow it, it was better to cut the line at the mouth than rip the hook out of the stomach. I then wished them luck and moved on. The whole exchange probably took longer to type than it took to do.

I have no idea if it worked. Probably not right away, but I like to think they appreciated the resource a little more, and as that feeling strengthened they'd strive to harm fish less. It certainly worked better than walking away mad and ranting to other fly fishermen, or starting a shouting match with them.

Later that same day I met a very good live minnow fishermen, and I actually learned a thing or two from him. I do my share of minnie fishing anyway, and their tactics are not so different than streamer fishin.
 
agreed
 
Excellent advice pc. I do think those tactics work. Not on all and definitely not on neanderthal bait anglers. But on non-neanderthal bait anglers like you encountered, it probably does influence their future behavior. Then the bait angler walks away thinking, "boy that was nice for one of those fly-rod snobs to not treat me like I was some kind of neanderthal.
 
I stopped reading midway, whatever.

I do have one thing to say, though, in regards to "baitfishers are slobs, flyfishers are not."

How many flies do you guys leave strung in trees or under rocks? I believe a guiding phrase in nymphing is actually, "if you're not getting hung up, you're not down enough." Every day I go fishing, I count myself in good graces if I don't leave 10 flies in trees and under water (3 at a time can kill you).

Honestly, what's worse? The styrofoam package that'll eventually smash into a bank and get turned into new bank through nature, or the rusty hook that'll give a child tetenus if they step on it in in the stream, or kill the bird that pecks it out of a tree?

Baitfishers are easy to slag, and its one of the thing that gives FF'ers an air of elitism in the world. We all do it, and we're all guilty of it (I know I think the same thing when I pick up 10' of 8# mono with a worm hook on the end), but whatever.

We all do our positive and our negative damage. I think about that every time I trod down a bank, through a weedbed and over some rocks that nature took thousands of years to place.
 
AMEN jack , i have argued with guys here , i am gonna try to make it to the jam if i can so i can learn how to fly fish , i have fished with jay L , he is alright , strong personalitys don't bother me any , we all are entitled to an opinion , alot can be learned from arguements , sometimes it makes us stronger. no grudges shall be had here though , we are all sharing a common bond and we are all brothers !!!!
 
I agree with JayLo's opinion about casting stones at bait fishermen as a group: I don't think we want to alienate a whole group of trout fishermen by lumping them together as a bunch of "bad guys." However, the way he drove the originial poster from the board by calling him an ___ was worse than most of the nasty things I have written on here. Though JayLo doesn't seem like the type who will acknowledge that he was too harsh and should apologize, he should apologize.
And, Jack, as an admin, I think you should have deleted his name-calling post(s) as you or another admin has done with a couple of mine.
(Sorry I waited so long to respond to this. I was going to stay out of it.)
 
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