Need help/thoughts on bass bug rig setup - fishing from kayak

[NovaJeff]

I have an old 6-7 wt rod with an old browning (the old US made ones) entry combo that I got 25 or so years ago. Recently got a nice 5wt trout setup, so rather than trash the other one, I figured I'd dedicate it to use for panfish and bass in ponds/lakes, since it already has a 6wt line on it and is a bit of a beefier rod. I sometimes bank-fish if there is room, but more often than not, I'm in my kayak on Marsh Creek, Chambers Lake, etc.

I went into Orvis Downingtown to ask about getting my rig set up to go for some bass with the setup, and the suggestion was to not waste $ on a sinking fly line, but rather get a sinking leader and it would do the job of getting the bass bugs down in the water. This leader is coated with a gray weighting material and is 7.5' long. I was instructed to put ~4' feet of tippet on the end of this sinking leader. Then when I want to shoot a popper, I can put on my normal 5x 9' leader so it isn't trying to sink them.

I got the sinking leader set up and went out in my kayak the other day and tied on a large soft streamer fly (two hooks, feathers about 6" long, etc.) to see what this type of fishing is all about. What I found was I had an unmanageable and uncastable mess.

The total length of my leader - tippet - lure is now approaching 11-12' long between the sinking part and the tippet, plus the large soft streamer. Of course that means when I retrieve it so it isn't touching the water, my fly line -> leader joint is WELL down into the eyelets and it makes it iffy to get it to not snag up a bit when trying to cast it out.

Being super low, sitting in the kayak (it's a tiny one, completely impossible to stand), I also was unable to get good back casts to load the line to sling it forward. If I got more than 15' or so of line out, on my back cast, the lure would quickly slap into the water and then of course the forward cast is a disaster.

Not sure if I am missing something to make what I am trying to do much more feasible, but I was just super disappointed with the experience. Granted, I tied the biggest lure I had on (figuring the early spring bass would be sleepy and need something to make them interested), but I anticipate relatively similar issues since most of these lures are on the larger side.

 

[Zipper]

When Orvis told you to add 4' of tippet they probably wouldn't have said that if they knew you were going to throw a 6" streamer. I would cut the tippet way back.

 

[bigjohn358]

Its the kayak sitting too low in the water. A kayak with a stadium style seat that has you sitting up or even a kayak that is stable enough to stand is a must for kayak fly fishing. I have a Nucanoe Unliminted with a swivel seat that makes fly fishing so much easier. I'm actually equiping an Old Town Predator MX with a swivel seat because the swivel seat makes casting so much easier! Fishing period from a sit inside kayak or a kayak without a raised seat is very difficult even if its not fly fishing.

 

[tomgamber]

I can cast from a float tube just fine. Way lower than a kayak.

That backcast that taps the water is just another way to load the rod if you practice it. 😉
Just keep your head down. if you've dropped your backcast that far it'll come in low and hot. Its more of a correction than a technique.

like everything on here. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it.

 

[HopBack]

Drop your casting arm down to 3/4 and you shouldn't have as much of an issue with the back cast. Dont be fooled though, casting out of a kayak is no easy task and will take a lot of practice to get used to.

 

[JerryC]

I've been in kayak twice. Once as a passenger where I was fishing and sitting below gunwale. The second time was at a fishing event, but it was my first time paddling a kayak. I was not comfortable with the idea of fly fishing from it. All the other beginners were using spinning tackle, so I paddled around for about a 1/2 hour getting the feel of the kayak and then did my fishing from shore. I have fly fished from a canoe, john boat with basic seats and and boats with raised seats. That said.
How long is your fly rod? I fish with either a 9' 6 wgt or 9' 8 wgt. With my floating line, I use a 5' furled thread leader and 5 or 6 foot tippet. I prefer to fish top water for bass and panfish. I have spare spools with intermediate and sinking lines for my reels. That's not an option for you.
Observations.
Line/fly hitting the water on the back cast. Having done that. I'd say you're dropping the tip of the rod on your back cast. It just matter of practice and technique. I guess there's some truth to the 10 to 2 idea when casting a fly rod.
You have a lot of weight on the end of that floating line, between the 7 foot sinking leader and the large streamer. It's like putting a very large popper and casting it with your 9' 5x leader. You would probably get the same result, sloppy, frustrating casts.
Suggestions.
Bass aren't leader shy. I use a 20# or 25# tippet with my furled leader. When I fish a sinking line I just use a 4 to 6 foot piece of fluorocarbon. Not sure about shortening yours, but I would suggest you use a heavier tippet.
You don't need big flies to catch bass. My bass flies range from 2" to 4" long. The bass in my avatar took a fly that was barely 2 inches long.
How deep is the water you're fishing in? If it's less than 10 feet you really don't need a sinking line/leader. I fish my streamers, lightly weighted crayfish patterns, Clousers and Woolly buggers with my floating line. The only time I use a sinking line is if I'm fishing between 11 to 20 feet of water and the fish are on or just off the bottom.
Try and leave 6 to 12 inches of fly line outside the tip top. Unless you're trying to land a fish, you don't need to bring your leader inside the rod tip. It's easy to do with streamers. Lifting the fly out of the water is the start of your back cast. It can be a bit dicey with poppers but a slow lift will keep them from digging in.
Just be patient. Things will fall into place

 

[afishinado]

I fly-fish from a kayak all the time, and in the same lakes you mentioned, plus I fish the big rivers for smallies. I use a floating line 90% of the time to FF. The poly leader setup you have is tough to cast. Go with a floating line to fish streamers and poppers, a bass taper line with a 7.5' or 9' in 0x -2x tapered mono leader should work well for turning over big flies.

If you do need a sinking line to get deeper, try a sink tip. Orvis makes a "Bank Shot" sink tip line (linked below) that will be much easier to cast and will get you done quicker. It has a 10' sink tip with a 23.5' head which casts very well from a kayak. Just tie on a 4' +/- straight tippet and you should be in business. Good luck.

Hydros® Bank Shot Sink Tip

Enjoy efficiency and versatility with Hydros Bank Shot Sink Tip fly line.

www.orvis.com

 

[Solitariolupo]

Use the water for your backcast.

 

[NovaJeff]

Its the kayak sitting too low in the water. A kayak with a stadium style seat that has you sitting up or even a kayak that is stable enough to stand is a must for kayak fly fishing. I have a Nucanoe Unliminted with a swivel seat that makes fly fishing so much easier. I'm actually equiping an Old Town Predator MX with a swivel seat because the swivel seat makes casting so much easier! Fishing period from a sit inside kayak or a kayak without a raised seat is very difficult even if its not fly fishing.

Thanks, that makes sense for the fly fishing challenge. I will say, however, that from my little Lifetime Angler, I have no real issues with my ultralite spinner 4.5ft or my spincast 6.5ft other than accidentally knocking my ultralite into Marsh Creek TWICE. One time I snagged it before it got too deep, and the other time it went down and I put a ton of weights on my 6.5ft rod and sure enough fished that sucker out LOL

 

[NovaJeff]

I've been in kayak twice. Once as a passenger where I was fishing and sitting below gunwale. The second time was at a fishing event, but it was my first time paddling a kayak. I was not comfortable with the idea of fly fishing from it. All the other beginners were using spinning tackle, so I paddled around for about a 1/2 hour getting the feel of the kayak and then did my fishing from shore. I have fly fished from a canoe, john boat with basic seats and and boats with raised seats. That said.
How long is your fly rod? I fish with either a 9' 6 wgt or 9' 8 wgt. With my floating line, I use a 5' furled thread leader and 5 or 6 foot tippet. I prefer to fish top water for bass and panfish. I have spare spools with intermediate and sinking lines for my reels. That's not an option for you.
Observations.
Line/fly hitting the water on the back cast. Having done that. I'd say you're dropping the tip of the rod on your back cast. It just matter of practice and technique. I guess there's some truth to the 10 to 2 idea when casting a fly rod.
You have a lot of weight on the end of that floating line, between the 7 foot sinking leader and the large streamer. It's like putting a very large popper and casting it with your 9' 5x leader. You would probably get the same result, sloppy, frustrating casts.
Suggestions.
Bass aren't leader shy. I use a 20# or 25# tippet with my furled leader. When I fish a sinking line I just use a 4 to 6 foot piece of fluorocarbon. Not sure about shortening yours, but I would suggest you use a heavier tippet.
You don't need big flies to catch bass. My bass flies range from 2" to 4" long. The bass in my avatar took a fly that was barely 2 inches long.
How deep is the water you're fishing in? If it's less than 10 feet you really don't need a sinking line/leader. I fish my streamers, lightly weighted crayfish patterns, Clousers and Woolly buggers with my floating line. The only time I use a sinking line is if I'm fishing between 11 to 20 feet of water and the fish are on or just off the bottom.
Try and leave 6 to 12 inches of fly line outside the tip top. Unless you're trying to land a fish, you don't need to bring your leader inside the rod tip. It's easy to do with streamers. Lifting the fly out of the water is the start of your back cast. It can be a bit dicey with poppers but a slow lift will keep them from digging in.
Just be patient. Things will fall into place

Thank you, lots of good info here. The rod setup in question is an 8.5 ft, I believe. Curious to try it with a less beefy fly, crayfish or one of the minnow/streamer types that are less of a huge wet sponge when trying to cast. Depth of water is anywhere from 3-20 feet depending on where I'm casting, most of the time. I'm no good at going after deep bass with any sort of setup, so I tend to stick near the coves with some land around, so not really the 30-100' depths of the inner parts, at Marsh, for example.

 

[wgmiller]

If you do need a sinking line to get deeper, try a sink tip. Orvis makes a "Bank Shot" sink tip line (linked below) that will be much easier to cast and will get you done quicker. It has a 10' sink tip with a 23.5' head which casts very well from a kayak. Just tie on a 4' +/- straight tippet and you should be in business. Good luck.

Yep. I have a floating line with a sink tip that I use for a majority of my warmwater fishing when I'm slinging streamers or otherwise going sub-surface. It casts well and gets they fly down into the strike zone. An intermediate or full sink line can be quite a bit trickier to cast, particularly from a kayak, where you're "on plane" with the water.

 

[Striperbobby]

I have an old 6-7 wt rod with an old browning (the old US made ones) entry combo that I got 25 or so years ago. Recently got a nice 5wt trout setup, so rather than trash the other one, I figured I'd dedicate it to use for panfish and bass in ponds/lakes, since it already has a 6wt line on it and is a bit of a beefier rod. I sometimes bank-fish if there is room, but more often than not, I'm in my kayak on Marsh Creek, Chambers Lake, etc.

I went into Orvis Downingtown to ask about getting my rig set up to go for some bass with the setup, and the suggestion was to not waste $ on a sinking fly line, but rather get a sinking leader and it would do the job of getting the bass bugs down in the water. This leader is coated with a gray weighting material and is 7.5' long. I was instructed to put ~4' feet of tippet on the end of this sinking leader. Then when I want to shoot a popper, I can put on my normal 5x 9' leader so it isn't trying to sink them.

I got the sinking leader set up and went out in my kayak the other day and tied on a large soft streamer fly (two hooks, feathers about 6" long, etc.) to see what this type of fishing is all about. What I found was I had an unmanageable and uncastable mess.

The total length of my leader - tippet - lure is now approaching 11-12' long between the sinking part and the tippet, plus the large soft streamer. Of course that means when I retrieve it so it isn't touching the water, my fly line -> leader joint is WELL down into the eyelets and it makes it iffy to get it to not snag up a bit when trying to cast it out.

Being super low, sitting in the kayak (it's a tiny one, completely impossible to stand), I also was unable to get good back casts to load the line to sling it forward. If I got more than 15' or so of line out, on my back cast, the lure would quickly slap into the water and then of course the forward cast is a disaster.

Not sure if I am missing something to make what I am trying to do much more feasible, but I was just super disappointed with the experience. Granted, I tied the biggest lure I had on (figuring the early spring bass would be sleepy and need something to make them interested), but I anticipate relatively similar issues since most of these lures are on the larger side.

I would get a full sinking line. If you don’t wAnt to spend a lot of money check out maxcatch web site. I got a full sinking 8wt line for 10 bucks and it works just fine. I sit on a kayak 05% of the time when casting and it casts well. Use a 4 foot leader and 1 or 2 feet of tippet and it will cast well. The beauty of kayaks is you can get closer to fish and structure without spooking fish so long casts aren’t necessary. Try chambers at night with a big popper sometime. I’ve caught really big large and smallmouth there at night and it’s also nice because no one else is on the lake at night.

 

[bigjohn358]

Keeping the leader short is key too! 4-6 foot MAX distance from the fly line to the fly!

 

[jifigz]

Fly fishing from a kayak is never fun. If you don't need to get really deep a regular floating line and a standard 7-10' leader will work. Otherwise just use a sink tip line.

 

[ocfisher]

Sounds like a lot going on for a low slung sit-in kayak. I would try your floating line with a bass type (or Flouro) leader and a clouser, meat whistle other weighted jig type fly. Or a bh bugger.

 

[NovaJeff]

I would get a full sinking line. If you don’t wAnt to spend a lot of money check out maxcatch web site. I got a full sinking 8wt line for 10 bucks and it works just fine. I sit on a kayak 05% of the time when casting and it casts well. Use a 4 foot leader and 1 or 2 feet of tippet and it will cast well. The beauty of kayaks is you can get closer to fish and structure without spooking fish so long casts aren’t necessary. Try chambers at night with a big popper sometime. I’ve caught really big large and smallmouth there at night and it’s also nice because no one else is on the lake at night.

Yep, I'm way more comfy with poppers, so I'd put my normal leader back on vs the sinking one and try them, I think.

I'm used to the fairly small poppers that I use for panfish...sort of pencil eraser size, but I bought some notably larger ones at Orvis. One that sort of dives down a bit too vs the kind that skim/pop on the surface.

I do enjoy chambers at night except for the bugs. It's nice when all the kids leave who scream and shout and sit on the rocks wallowing in a huge weed cloud leave for the evening LOL

 

[acesedgley]

I fish more from my kayak than wading in streams, and have little trouble doing so.
I mostly fish poppers, gurglers, and divers on top, and a few underwater patterns that really don't go deep....i can even see the take often by the fly disappearing (when sub surface) than by feel.
I have used a full sink line for trying deeper water but don't really like it...may try the suggestion of a sink tip some time.
I fish Chambers a fair amount, but have not done so in the dead of night...0 dark 30 mornings and eveningsonly.

 

[acesedgley]

Oh..forgot, my kayak is sit in not sit on

 

[CLSports]

Nothing beats a GOOD sink tip fly line. Most important part of any setup. SA or Orvis lines are good. Prices are going way up on good lines though.

For your setup, maybe just add 2 feet of tippet to keep it a little shorter. Also, practice single or double hauls to get more power on your casts. Tough from a kayak I know . . . That Polyleader is really going to work better on a 7 or 8 wt rod and attached to a heavier line that matches the rod weight (or even up a line weight).

I tired your setup years ago and it was ok at best, but once I spent some $$ on a sink tip line and a good 8 wt. rod it made all the difference in the world for chucking big streamers and bushy poppers. For little buggers it will be ok though.