Native Brook Trout to be added to PA's Wildlife Action Plan

Jack,

True on a statewide level. But I would argue that many of individual streams are threatened. What was that the EBTJV stat - only in 30% of its historic range. We had one go poof here in the 90s near my house. Not a sportfishery in any sense, but a brook trout stream none-the-less.

By having such a fragmented population, there is very little natural reintroduction.
 
How about we get rid of all the brown trout. That would help the brook trout more than making it no kill on brook trout.
By the way, what does being a PA History teacher have to do with brook trout. In other words, what exactly compelled you to add that extra little nugget (or tidbit if you prefer). does it make you an authority on brook trout? Does it make you better than a doctor, and engineer a truck driver or even a lawyer? Well, maybe a lawyer, I'll give you that one. Sorry Jack, just joking.
Also, when you say "I think we should at least" ..., do you mean you would like to see even more protection than that? How about no more fishing in any stream that has brook trout?
The above message contained a liberal amount of sarcasm.
I feel that enacting a no kill law for native brook trout is quite excessive for PA because they are far from being a threatened species. It might not be excessive in lets say North Carolina where there aren't as many, but it certainly is in PA. What we need is more habitat restoration and protection. Ohio has the right idea IMHO.

Geez Dave I'm not sure if I know how to respond, but I'm sure I'll come up with something.

My profession does not make me an expert on anything except my content area, which is, as you know history. What compelled me to add that little nugget, or tidbit if you prefer, is the fact that I teach PA History and the Brook Trout happens to be our state fish. Throughout the course my students study the various state symbols, the Brook Trout being one of them. Being a teacher of PA History, I feel as though our symbols should be protected. I would also be in favor of enacting legislation that would protect Grouse (our state bird) from being threatened if their numbers were on the decline. I might even go so far as protecting the Great Dane, which is our state dog. Fireflies though, our state insect, are on their own. I could have that same feeling if I were a doctor, engineer, truck driver or lawyer the only difference is, my salary would be much better than it currently is.

When I said "I think we should at least"... I meant that I would not be opposed to enacting a no kill restriction on Brook Trout. If you don't want to fish in any stream with Brook Trout, be my guest. If you want to kill every native you catch, have at it, it's what you paid for when you bought a license, I guess.

Dave, I don't think that Brook Trout are threatened either, but if we can do something to keep them from being threatened, don't you think we should?
 
glad to see you have a sense of humor. ;-)

I'm not a teacher, but when I use the term "at least" it means the same thing as at a bare minimum, implying we should do more than that, but at least do that. The next highest step beyond no kill on all brook trout is no fishing for brook trout. I guess when I saw that, I thought ... is this guy a PETA nut or something, or just over dramatizing like most of us do from time to time.

Not only are Brook trout not threatened or endangered species, they are in no immediate danger of even becoming a "threatened" species statewide. There is no need to make the entire state no kill on brook trout. Sturgeon, yes, Paddlefish yes. But not brook trout. Would you feel the same way about Brook trout if the state fish was a bluegill? I think you would. I certainly would. The Brook Trout is a beautiful fish. I certainly wouldn’t be apposed to enhancement programs on some streams where the regulation is changed to no kill on brook trout. in fact, I would support that. I’d love to see a couple large streams given back to the brook trout. But it is not necessary to make such a regulation on most of the currently healthy brook trout streams. Habitat protection, yes, but fish protection, not necessary in my opinion. Like I always say, treat the problem, not the symptom. … and I am not a doctor.;-)

My views on this mirror RLeeP pretty closely, but he is one of those guys who loves that invasive exotic species known as the brown trout. ;-)

By the way, grouse populations are on the decline and that sucks. PA already has a state fossil and I don't want grouse or Brook Trout to become one of those? Some of the symbols are kinda silly though. Great Dane? It’s a German dog. State beautification plant? Come on! Then we have a State Steam Locomotive and a State Electric Locomotive. But we have no official state beer? You can’t argue that breweries in Pennsylvania are more than threatened. They are endangered. I propose we make Yuengling Lager the state beer. There are only two types of beer that I drink. Yuengling, and free beer. Those two are by far the best. OK, I sometimes drink Straub’s too (St Mary’s). I quit drinking Rolling Rock when they were bought out and moved out.
 
Cynic wrote:
"How about no more fishing in any stream that has brook trout?

The above message contained a liberal amount of sarcasm."

Farmer Dave - Still pulling the chains!

Have to agree that implementing habitat restoration measures would be a step forward. But, will it fly with the Develpment Crowd? (In addition to being a Cynic I am a pessimist - and a skeptic).
North Carolina - I think that they have a fair to substantial population of brook trout in a good number of their streams. Maybe someone from NC could enlighten us.
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Of course I'm still pulling chains. Have you ever tried to push one???

FarmerDave's definition of pessimist: An optimist with experience.

The development crowd won't go for it, but we shoudl take what we can get. Afterall, that is what the development crowd does.

What i meant was brook trout are more threatened in North Carolina than they are up here. I believe NC has no kill on brook trout on at least some streams, and no fishing on some others. I could be wrong. They are trying to get back some of the range that has been taken over by Rainbow trout. I believe they have even used poison to get rid of some of the rainbows. I haven't been down there in awhile, but I still own a piece of land in western NC.
 
Oh crap, Pennsylvania already has a state beverage (milk). that's gotta make PETA happy.

Hey guttrap, did you know that the Great Dane was named the state dog in 1965 almost 5 years before the brook trout was named the state fish? It just goes to show you how our politicians feel about this beautiful native species.
 
OhioOutdoorsman wrote:
Jack,

True on a statewide level. But I would argue that many of individual streams are threatened. What was that the EBTJV stat - only in 30% of its historic range. ....
Click to expand...

I would surmise, however that the reduction to 30% of their native range is not solely a result of post 70's habitat degradation, but likely a lot of that reduction occurred as a result of logging and mining practice well over 50 years ago. Just sayin', is all.
 
No PETA nut here Dave. Unless you count my version; People Eating Tasty Animals. I am a confirmed carnivore. I know most teachers are very liberal, but I'm not one of them. (I don't generally see eye to eye with my co-workers on most issues) I'll vote for Sam Adams as our state brew. They recently purchased Rolling Rock. Yuengling is a fine beer though, I just live close to Latrobe.

I guess my strong opinion on Brook Trout comes from a small stream that I spend a lot of time at. It has a wonderful population of natives and it could be a very stong fishery except the fish Commission stocks browns and hatchery brooks over them. I see a lot of barely legal natives on stringers at the start of the season. I guess I'm torn on stocking native streams, but those guys who keep the natives (all seven inches of them) when they could just as easily catch and keep the stockies, really burn my arse.

I was not aware that grouse numbers are on the decline. That does suck. I think that grouse are the best tasting game bird we have. (They also make great soft hackles) Now that my son has started hunting, we do more squirrel hunting. He calls himself "The Squirrel Sniper" They're pretty good too.
 
I didn't know that Dave. I never knew why the Great Dane was choosen. I'd pick my good old Redbone Coonhound.
 
>>I didn't know that Dave. I never knew why the Great Dane was choosen. I'd pick my good old Redbone Coonhound.>>

If it ain't a Plott dog, it ain't a coon hound...:)
 
guttrap wrote:
No PETA nut here Dave. Unless you count my version; People Eating Tasty Animals. I am a confirmed carnivore. I know most teachers are very liberal, but I'm not one of them. (I don't generally see eye to eye with my co-workers on most issues) I'll vote for Sam Adams as our state brew. They recently purchased Rolling Rock. Yuengling is a fine beer though, I just live close to Latrobe.

I guess my strong opinion on Brook Trout comes from a small stream that I spend a lot of time at. It has a wonderful population of natives and it could be a very stong fishery except the fish Commission stocks browns and hatchery brooks over them. I see a lot of barely legal natives on stringers at the start of the season. I guess I'm torn on stocking native streams, but those guys who keep the natives (all seven inches of them) when they could just as easily catch and keep the stockies, really burn my arse.

I was not aware that grouse numbers are on the decline. That does suck. I think that grouse are the best tasting game bird we have. (They also make great soft hackles) Now that my son has started hunting, we do more squirrel hunting. He calls himself "The Squirrel Sniper" They're pretty good too.
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that grouse were on the decline, but I can't produce an article. I could be wrong. I love hunting for them, but haven't done that in several years. I can't hit them, but love hunting them. i wish I had some on my farm.

I didn't know Sam Adams bought the brewery. That is great news.
 
One of you guys needs to come to my farm and rid it of some of these raccoons even though neither of you have blueticks. Lots of fox squirrels too guttrap.
 
I'm in Dave. I also have two loud mouthed, stubborn, opinionated, beagles that love to hunt rabbits. My wife bought the Redbone, he's a great dog, very protective and loyal. My buddy has a bluetick female, we're planning on making a few redticks some day.
 
FarmerDave wrote:
What i meant was brook trout are more threatened in North Carolina than they are up here. I believe NC has no kill on brook trout on at least some streams, and no fishing on some others. I could be wrong. They are trying to get back some of the range that has been taken over by Rainbow trout. I believe they have even used poison to get rid of some of the rainbows. I haven't been down there in awhile, but I still own a piece of land in western NC.
Click to expand...

When I fished the smokies about 3-4 years ago there were several streams with no kill regs on brookies and it was very understandable too because I caught maybe 5 brook trout the entire time I was there. It was weird fishing streams 3-4 feet wide and catching nothing but rainbows. Down there they encourage people to keep the rainbows, really to the point that in the no-kill brookie streams I didn't see too many rainbows much above legal size.

With the grouse population it fluctuates so much, one year its up the next year it's down. I've actually seen an upswing around here the last few years in the population, last year on my 6 trips out I averaged 10 flushes a day, which is just fine by me considering I don't use a dog or anything. Grouse hunting is second only to archery in terms of enjoyable hunting for me. The biggest thing next to habitat destruction is predators and then comes breeding conditions and whether it was a wet spring or not. This spring/summer I've already seen a lot of young ones, so it should be another good season!

The best way to compare grouse and brook trout is how they fluctuate. Brook trout pops get hurt during warm/low water summers and then flourish during higher water summers. Its just all part of nature. I think, IMO, the best reg we could establish is on streams with mixed brook/brown pops have it "No Kill" on brook trout and have people harvest the browns, it might be tough since the browns are already well established in these areas, but I think it could help switch the population more in favor of the brooks that are in the streams.
 
You are welcome to come. The problem is, my farm is about 5 miles on the wrong side of the Ohio/PA line. My guests can legally fish there without a license, but they can't [color=CC0000]"legally"[/color] hunt there without one and we all know school teachers never break the law.;-)

Right now i have lots of bunnies, but I'm sure the fox and coyote will have them thined out by hunting season. Oh yea, I did see a hen pheasant while I was brush-hogging the pasture. that was a welcome site.
 
My brother had a bluetick. Great dog. also, when i was a kid, we had a Beagle/bluetick mix for hunting rabbits. It was only 1/4 bluetick and looked like an oversized beagle, but you could tell by his voice.
 
I will be working on this request for comment this weekend.

I personally lean in the direction of protecting brook trout and reducing the numbers of invasive/non-native species like the brown. I'm of the mindset that special regs for brookies and the removal of non-native species is definitely a good thing. But how do we accomplish this while maintaining fishing interest. Once the interest is gone then so is the money that is acquired from license sales, federal/state funding as well as other sources and along with it are any projects intended to support trout fishing/conservation. Is increasing the size limit and decreasing the creel limit on brook trout another way to go? :-? Couldn't hurt.
IMHO.

Well, whichever way you lean don't forget to write and send your letters. :)
 
There is no hope for restoration of extirpated brook trout populations if "regulations and management are off the table" as PFBC has already said. There has to be regulations to protect recovering populations and some other trout species may have to be removed from certain water, like Big Spring. Actually I’d like to see PFBC get rid of a couple of populations of browns in limestone stream that brookies are native to in order to restore a few populations in limestone streams.
I’ll write a letter, but will give it a lot of thought before I do. I think we’ve got to consider global warming as a very real threat to brookie populations, and that we have to act now if we are to have any brook trout by the year 2100.
 
jack,

again when i comment on the expiration of brook trout im talking about sepa. AGAIN IM TALKING ABOUT SEPA. thought i would put it in all caps because some of you guys are missing my point, and that it at the heart of it. yes special protection is needed on this side of the state. figure this:

in ncpa lets say McKean, Tioga, Potter, Lycoming,Clinton, Cameron and Elk Counties has 1194 streams on the natural reproduction list. now granted not all are brookie streams but i bet most are. lets say between local and tourist fishing the area there are 10,000 fisherman . i bet half those fisherman fish for stocked trout anyways. so in a year you have 5,000 fisherman fishing 1194 wild trout streams. there just arent many local people up there.

in sepa lets say york, lancaster, chester,delaware, Philadelphia,Montgomery,Dauphin, Lebanon, Berks, Bucks,Northampton, and Lehigh has 190 streams on the natural reproduction list. granted not all are brookie streams and most fisdherman are looking for stockies. between locals and tourists you have 25,000 fisherman. 12,000 fisherman fishing 190 streams.

now im just guessing fisherman numbers but the reality is there.
heck just 1 county in ncpa has more wild trout streams than all these counties combined. now throw in pressure, harvest, urbanization, pollution and the other millions of factors. yes jack they could expirate. that why we need to start protecting them in sepa....even it it means not fishing for them. and again for anyone that forgot to read it IN SOUTHEAST PA.
 
My guess would be 250,000 SE PA anglers fishing 190 wild trout streams, of course the wild trout report says none of these anglers fish for wild trout. I think the numbers to be accuratewould be somewhere in between. Actually including all the counties SE of Blue mountain there are 68 streams with naturally reproducing brook trout. There are 123 brook trout/brown trout streams, and 6 streams with all three speices of trout. But none of the Brook Trout enhancement Stream are in this list, I could name a few streams I'd like to see with BTE regulations on them in SE PA.
 
ya my guess would have been more to but i was being conservative. either way i think my point is valid. thank you for your opinion stonefly. at least you can see some streams here in the southeast need reg changes if not all of them.

hey that report was wrong.....i know at least 1 angler that fishes those streams
 
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