Muskies in Creeks and Trout Streams?

[jifigz]

Dave_W wrote:

jifigz wrote:
Pike outcompete muskies because they are one of the first fish to spawn which happens directly after ice out. They come shallow, spawn before muskies, and therefore are larger when the young muskies are smaller since they are hatched later in the year. However, in the end, the musky grows larger. Once again, just the way it works. There will always be more pike but the monster muskie will still be around.

Rather than being competitors.... There's a theory that this process is part of how these species have co-evolved across much of North America: The pike hatch first and are large enough to predate on the muskie fry that emerge weeks later. This helps ensure that muskies remain scarce and fit in their role of top predator.

That's exactly what I meant but said it in a different way I suppose. Yep, the young pike are larger and prey on the young musky. So pike remain more numerous but generally don't get all that big (I know, I know, some places grow monster pike) and then the musky, while less plentiful, is top dog.

Not to hijack the thread, but musky are no longer top dog in the Susky watershed.....I believe that has to go to the flathead.

 

[tomgamber]

Bruno wrote:
I once saw a guy land a musky on Tionestia Creek when the musky decided to eat the trout he was fighting. This was at the confluence where Salmon Creek meets Tionestia Creek.

SAW A GUY LAND A 52 INCH MUSKY ON HIS DAUGHTERS SNOOPY ROD NEAR THE OLD BRIDGE ON TIONESTA WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE. TOOK LIKE A HALF HOUR. HILARIOUS.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Wild_Trouter wrote:
I've seen 40-50" muskies in the Tully right at the start of the DHALO project below the dam. I've caught them in the Connie while also catching transient brown trout in the same stretch.

I was going to say Tully, too. I hooked one briefly on gear years back, a Rapala CD 5. One run, and *dink*

 

[fishhead]

100%

 

[Dave_W]

Nymph-wristed wrote:

Wild_Trouter wrote:
I've seen 40-50" muskies in the Tully right at the start of the DHALO project below the dam. I've caught them in the Connie while also catching transient brown trout in the same stretch.

I was going to say Tully, too. I hooked one briefly on gear years back, a Rapala CD 5. One run, and *dink*

Interesting.

As Mike noted a few posts above, the lower Tully was stocked with muskies (tigers, I believe) back in the day. Connie is still stocked with tigers.

Regarding these larger creeks: the muskies that show up in the upper reg section of Tully are dam washovers (this is common knowledge, as you know). Some recent studies in the mid-west suggest a proclivity for reservoir muskies to go over dams. To my knowledge, in recent years, Blue Marsh has been exclusively a tiger stocked reservoir. Has anyone seen or heard of a purebred muskie from the Tully?

I ask this based on my experience with the Connie. Connie is stocked with tigers but purebreds are more common there in my experience.

It seems that small numbers of purebred muskies seem to get around. Every now and then one will show up in lower Yellow Breeches. Some of you have seen them on Penns and other places where they're not stocked.

Something interesting is going on.
Thanks for the replies and stories.

 

[Mike]

There has never been any reproduction of Muskellunge identified in much of the state ( except for some NW Pa waters and the "North Branch" Susquehanna). Because of this rarity and ease of young Esoscid misidentification, any reproduction reported by members of the general public would need to be verified to be officially recognized. This is standard procedure for easily misidentified or unusual species of substantial interest and the public is often quite cooperative in these cases. For example, over the last decade the identification of snakeheads vs bowfins was scrutinized quite closely.

 

[jifigz]

Mike, has there ever been any evidence of a reproducing population in the Juniata or is that population all entirely fed from the stockings. And if so, what separates the J's qualities/characteristics from that if the North Branch and prevents them from reproducing in the Juniata?

 

[Dave_W]

Mike wrote:
Because of this rarity and ease of young Esoscid misidentification, any reproduction reported by members of the general public would need to be verified to be officially recognized.

Agree that this is a problem and it sheds doubt on some of the stories out there. Many anglers can't tell a tiger from a purebred. Pickerel and juvenile pike are often mis-identified too.

I can think of one case of a trout stream I'm familiar with which has some chain pickerel in a particular area and some anglers have told me they have caught "muskies" there.

Nevertheless, every once in awhile, we'll see a pic which clearly reveals a small muskie or northern pike from a strange place.

 

[Mike]

Unless reproduction was discovered this past summer, I have never heard any speculation or seen confirmation of reproduction in the Juniata. I'm not certain that it is even understood why reproduction has been identified in the "North Branch" Susquehanna and not elsewhere in eastern Pa, given the range of environments in the various rivers and river sections. Perhaps it is because life stage specific surveys had not been conducted very frequently and because YOY Muskellunge sampling protocols had not been developed until YOY work on the North Branch revealed that YOY could be reliably found in specific habitat types at a specific time of the year, as long as it was a good reproduction year. This is one reason why the PFBC biologists have in the past two or three years started YOY specific summer Muskellunge electrofishing surveys in the rivers.

This is not to say that past surveys of a more general type would never have discovered Muskellunge reproduction; it was just less likely. Muskellunge reproduction was previously known to occur in the North Branch based on comments from the late 1970's fisheries manager there, but the extent was not discovered until more recently when YOY specific sampling techniques were developed and conducted.

Bear in mind that last year was a wash-out with respect to a number of river fish population surveys and that repeated survey work in certain river sections statewide may be required in years when questionable reproduction conditions occur. This means that statewide progress could be slowed in identifying rivers with substantial reproduction. There is incentive to find fisheries that can be supported through reproduction, however, as stocking can then be shifted elsewhere or production of those fish can be discontinued.

 

[jifigz]

Regarding the identification of young esox, I'm sure it can be challenging, but a lot of individuals are just ignorant and rather bad at identification of fish. I know of one stream that has a fair number of chain picks in places and then lots of brown trout in others. It's weird because I typically don't picture those two species sharing the same waters very often but it happens.

 

[afishinado]

Mike wrote:
Unless reproduction was discovered this past summer, I have never heard any speculation or seen confirmation of reproduction in the Juniata. I'm not certain that it is even understood why reproduction has been identified in the "North Branch" Susquehanna and not elsewhere in eastern Pa, given the range of environments in the various rivers and river sections. Perhaps it is because species life stage specific surveys had not been conducted very frequently. This is one reason why the PFBC biologists have in the past two or three years started YOY specific summer Muskellunge electrofishing surveys in the rivers. Bear in mind, however, that last year was a wash-out with respect to a number of river fish population surveys.

Interesting subject ^

Here is a great article about the presence of stream-born muskies in the north branch of the Susky.

I grew up fishing that section of the River (the north branch) and muskies have always been present in certain stretches of river up there. Why they reproduce there and not in the lower river is sort of a mystery.

Discontinuing the stocking over wild fish is a good idea. The wild ones have adapted to habitat long ago and stocking may vary well mess up that gene pool. Plus, if the pure-breds are spawning and thriving on their own, dropping in tigers to compete with them makes no sense.

Like trout, it only makes sense from an ecological standpoint to stock waters where natural reproduction is absent or rare. Let nature take it's course in places where fish can do well on their own.

I am anxious to see all future surveys to monitor how the muskies are doing without stocking on the NB.

 

[Dave_W]

And, keep in mind, northern pike reproduce naturally in the North Branch as well, and are well established up there.

While much less common in the middle and lower Susky, pike show up from time to time around Harrisburg, although I have never seen one in that section in all my years fishing there.

A strong naturally reproducing population of muskies exists in the upper Potomac as well - a population that hardly existed a generation ago. The upper Potomac is very close to the Juniata or North Branch in its characteristics.

What's going on?
Inquiring minds wanna know.

 

[afishinado]

Here is the PFBC Muskie Plan.

Required reading for PA Muskie Geeks like us....

 

[tomgamber]

Hey Mike,

Speaking of Muskies and Maiden Creek... Lake Ontelaunee (sp) hasn't been fished by anywhere but shore in over 50 or 60 years. When I grew up a bike ride away, people used to tell stories of Fish commission and Water authority sightings of very, very large muskies while either patrolling or doing work on the lake. Any truth to what might be out there that you can't get to?

 

[Mike]

Related to Afish's comment in #54 above, here is the 2017 update to the original Muskellunge Plan that he included.

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Documents/MuskyManagementPlan-2017update.pdf

As for post #55, Lake Ontelaunee produced the two longest Muskellunge that I ever trap netted. Both were 51 inches long. That was in the very early 1980's. Muskellunge and Tiger Muskellunge stockings were there were terminated within a decade or so thereafter due to limited access, including no boating.

 

[bigjohn58]

Mike,

Why do musky seem to have such poor reproduction here in PA?

 

[misanthropist]

bigjohn58 wrote:
Mike,

Why do musky seem to have such poor reproduction here in PA?

They reproduce just fine in the western half of the state, but then again, they are native to this region.

 

[RLeep2]

Depends how we define "just fine". The majority of the fishery here in the native range is still supported by fingerling plants. Natural reproduction occurs, but I don't believe it is sufficient to support PFBC goals for management of the musky fishery.

 

[Mike]

If you check the link that I provided above, by looking at the tables of the alternate year stocking plans you can then find nearly every lake and river section that is being stocked. I say "nearly" because a few may have been deleted by now due to poor performance revealed by fish population surveys using the criteria presented in the document. Make sure you scroll past the references at the end to,find the tables. The document also has some substantial changes in segments regarding fish culture, stocking, and stocking evals in comparison to the full plan that Afish presented.

 

[pcray1231]

Examples for me.

Crooked Creek - above and below the dam

Tionesta Creek - Above and below the dam. Below the dam is fairly well known. But well above, in the stocked trout sections, we have come across muskies almost every year. Quite frequently they swipe at or take a stocked trout off your line. Happens once a year or so. A few big pools are pretty reliable, actually.

Oil Creek - throughout, up to and beyond Drake's Well.

Brokenstraw - mostly pike it seems, as was stated.

Kiski River - ok, it's a river, and a trib to the Allegheny, this is obvious. Not really a trout stream, but have seen or hooked musky while fishing for smallies or walleyes.

Yellow Creek - used to fish around Homer City reservoir area, long ago. Used to regularly land smallish (as in up to 20") pike. Alongside stocked trout and various bass, crappie, walleye, etc. Smallish stream, and quite a variety of species.

Kinzua Creek - Musky. Runs into the Allegheny Reservoir, so, uh, yeah.

Allegheny River - obviously. But in Coudersport? Stocked Trout section. Yep.