Misleading maps?

[silverfox]

I don't mention this often (I've actually never mentioned it here), but I guide in PA and MD. Off the top of my head, I'd say around 90% or more of the folks I take fishing are from out of state. Of those, probably 95% have never fly-fished, and most have little knowledge about fish in general. A gentleman yesterday brought something to my attention that I've never really paid much attention to before and after digging a bit found it "interesting." I thought it might spur a "colorful" discussion, and yall know I like stirring the pot.

This fella had never fished in Pennsylvania before and had turned to the world wide web for some intel. While he was quizzing me on fisheries in the area, he mentioned that the PA Fish & Boat Commission lists Spring Creek as one of the best wild BROOK trout fisheries. After I finished wiping up the coffee I spit all over my shirt, I asked where he saw this. He replied that it was on the "Best Fishing Waters" map. I just said that must be a mistake because that's really not a brook trout fishery.

I've never really looked at this map, but sure enough, the Best Fishing Waters map lists spring creek from Cedar Run to Paradise for "Brook Trout."

Best Fishing Waters - Trout-Wild

www.fishandboat.com

I'll admit that I haven't really fished a whole lot south of I99 or up to Cedar Run, though I have at various points in the past where there is/was public access. I also admit that I don't fish Spring Creek all that much in general, but again, over the past 30 years I have fished it many times. I went on a pretty good tear back in the early 2000's around there, but the cookie cutter brown trout just never really excited me. I've night-fished a lot in various places all along spring creek.

I can confidently say, however, that I have never caught a brook trout IN spring creek anywhere from Houserville to paradise. In fact, I've never caught a brook trout in spring creek proper anywhere. I have in the headwaters tributaries, but not where the map shows them. I'm really curious how many here have caught so many brook trout between Houserville and paradise that you'd call it a brook trout fishery?

So I started looking at all the other Best Fishing Waters streams and how they're labeled. First, the basic stats. There are 23 brown trout sections listed, 9 brook trout, and 1 rainbow trout. Now some of these are highly questionable, like spring creek. Big Spring is listed for rainbow trout. It's the only rainbow trout stream on the map. I find that a bit ironic, though accurate I guess. Some other questionable listings are Penns Creek. They have Section 3 of Penns Creek (Coburn to Swift Run) listed for brook trout. Slate Run and Cedar Run (Tioga/Lycoming) are listed for brook trout. I'm not sure I'd even suggest that either of those streams are predominantly brook trout anymore. At least from an angling standpoint. The entirety of Fishing Creek is listed for brook trout as well. I have caught brook trout in Fishing Creek, but I would've pinned the odds at something like 20:1 brown trout to brook trout if I was advising an out-of-stater on what to expect.

If you change those 7 sections from brook trout to brown trout, that changes the stats to 30 brown trout, 2 brook trout, and 1 rainbow trout. I suppose none of this matters, although, as I mentioned, it was a bit awkward explaining to someone unfamiliar with the state that the Best Fishing Waters map is just blatantly wrong. I assume that map has nothing to do with biological data, which makes it even more confusing. I'm sure there are random brook trout in all of these waters, but I'd expect the "Best Fishing Waters" listing to be representative of the species you would expect to catch there.

I'm curious to hear what others think about this. Would you classify Penns Creek, Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Slate Run, and Cedar as the best wild brook trout waters? Maybe I just suck at catching brook trout.

 

[pcray1231]

I HAVE caught wild brook trout in all of those waters. But Penns and Spring are definitely predominantly brown trout. I'll say the % of brookies in Penns is increasing I think, but it's still a minority (1 in 20 or something). It's far less than that in Spring, 1 in several hundred maybe.

Slate and especially Cedar I'd say are well over 50% brookies where and when I fished them, but it's been like 20 years since I really knew them well, and I focused on upper ends. Given that time, I'll refrain from commenting further.

Yeah, I'm thinking the PFBC map page is glitching, it's a mistake.

 

[silverfox]

I HAVE caught wild brook trout in all of those waters. But Penns and Spring are definitely predominantly brown trout. I'll say the % of brookies in Penns is increasing I think, but it's still a minority (1 in 20 or something). It's far less than that in Spring, 1 in several hundred maybe.

Slate and especially Cedar I'd say are well over 50% brookies where and when I fished them, but it's been like 20 years since I really knew them well, and I focused on upper ends. Given that time, I'll refrain from commenting further.

Yeah, I'm thinking the PFBC map page is glitching, it's a mistake.

Right. It might be easier for me to say that the only stream I haven't caught a brook trout in is spring creek proper. I still wouldn't call any of those streams "brook trout streams". Certainly not "the best brook trout streams" in the state. I might say they're predominantly brown trout with a chance to catch a brook trout.

My more recent experience on Slate and Cedar was more like 10:1 BT/ST, but it could have been a conditions thing. I'm wondering if they didn't tell the map folks to make the map and they just don't really know the fisheries well and slipped through the cracks. Or it's all just fantasy and they assume nobody looks at it.

I did consider that they may not want to direct the masses to small brook trout streams that can't handle the pressure. The problem there is that it would just be all 100% brown trout then and I guess that's probably not a good look for a state with brook trout as the state fish.

That might explain why they're directing people to Big Spring in search of rainbow trout. Maybe that's why they don't want to get rid of the rainbows there. 🤷‍♂️ Who knows? I just thought it was odd.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea something is deff going on on penns with the brook trout but like you guys said still not close to predominantly brook trout. Will be interesting to see if they figure out what is behind the wide spread decline of browns in montana. I am wondering if a form of environmental resistance to the browns, low flows of something else, could be behind the mini brookie explosion on penns. The area of environmental resistance in invasion biology is an ongoing kind of poorly understood topic but there are some good hypothesises out there about flows and hydrographs by Dr’s Fausch and Kanno.

Rick Nyles who guides there alot gave a presentation at my local TU just about 3 years ago and said they are used to getting a couple a year in penns. Last time I went out there in one section it was 1:3 brook to brown. Im sure very patchy depending on where you go.

Anyone in fisheries will probably point to highly cyclical nature of brook trout populations confined to small headwater streams by various impediments to movement(invasive trout or other species, thermal, chemical, or physical ect. ) and that may be it. Who knows maybe the numbers will go way back down again and its a flash in the pan. But i’ll sure as H*** be watching to find out and see.

 

[troutbert]

Spring Creek. That's clearly a mistake. Spring Creek does not have a brook trout population. Not even in the uppermost reaches of Spring Creek.

I don't know how such an error could occur. But I've seen many errors on GIS maps. Even on Google maps and Google is one of the biggest tech companies in the world. They often have streams and roads mislabeled.

 

[silverfox]

Spring Creek. That's clearly a mistake. Spring Creek does not have a brook trout population. Not even in the uppermost reaches of Spring Creek.

I don't know how such an error could occur. But I've seen many errors on GIS maps. Even on Google maps and Google is one of the biggest tech companies in the world. They often have streams and roads mislabeled.

I want to think this is just a simple error, but I'm not so sure. If you google "best wild trout streams in PA" that is the first result that pops up, so that page probably gets a fair amount of interweb traffic. You'd think they'd make sure it was accurate.

I really think it was done on purpose so the reality isn't so glaring. If you were charged with coming up with a list of the best brook trout waters in the state, knowing that you might be sending a lot of anglers to the list, could you come up with ten streams in the state? 5? 1? I know I couldn't. I know which ones I would choose, but no way I'd mention them in public, let alone make a map of them and promote it on the www.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There are 4 or 5 spring tribs that have em as silverfox mentioned. Makes you wonder why they never go into the mainstem below logan branch where its know to be one of the coldest summer time trout streams in the state with an insane amount of forage🤔

 

[troutbert]

There are 4 or 5 spring tribs that have em as silverfox mentioned. Makes you wonder why they never go into the mainstem below logan branch where its know to be one of the coldest summer time trout streams in the state with an insane amount of forage🤔

Logan Branch is all browns, no brookies at all. Same with Cedar Run (Spring Creek trib).

There are headwater freestone tributaries on Tussey Mountain that have brook trout, but those all sink when they reach the limestone valley. So, there are long stretches of dry channel between those brookie populations and Spring Creek.

So, you don't have the situation found many other places where brook trout streams flow directly into larger streams, and create a localized presence of native brookies in the larger stream near the confluence. That is the case on Penns Creek for example.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Logan Branch is all browns, no brookies at all. Same with Cedar Run (Spring Creek trib).

There are headwater freestone tributaries on Tussey Mountain that have brook trout, but those all sink when they reach the limestone valley. So, there are long stretches of dry channel between those brookie populations and Spring Creek.

So, you don't have the situation found many other places where brook trout streams flow directly into larger streams, and create a localized presence of native brookies in the larger stream near the confluence. That is the case on Penns Creek for example.

I have actually heard the very top of logan does have brookies but have not verified it myself

 

[troutbert]

I have actually heard the very top of logan does have brookies but have not verified it myself

I've fished it all the way up alongside the Pleasant Gap hatchery, and caught all browns, no brookies.

Gap Run in Pleasant Gap has brookies. Gap Run goes down a sinkhole.

Gap Run is in the same drainage. But they are two different streams.

 

[troutbert]

I want to think this is just a simple error, but I'm not so sure. If you google "best wild trout streams in PA" that is the first result that pops up, so that page probably gets a fair amount of interweb traffic. You'd think they'd make sure it was accurate.

I really think it was done on purpose so the reality isn't so glaring. If you were charged with coming up with a list of the best brook trout waters in the state, knowing that you might be sending a lot of anglers to the list, could you come up with ten streams in the state? 5? 1? I know I couldn't. I know which ones I would choose, but no way I'd mention them in public, let alone make a map of them and promote it on the www.

I think it's a mistake.

I don't think they would deliberately mislabel Spring Creek a brook trout stream, because they realize that there are THOUSANDS of people who know that's all wrong. They wouldn't deliberately embarrass themselves like that.

Online maps probably have very low priority at the PFBC, so they probably have very junior people, maybe even interns, create that kind of stuff.

 

[silverfox]

I think it's a mistake.

I don't think they would deliberately mislabel Spring Creek a brook trout stream, because they realize that there are THOUSANDS of people who know that's all wrong. They wouldn't deliberately embarrass themselves like that.

Online maps probably have very low priority at the PFBC, so they probably have very junior people, maybe even interns, create that kind of stuff.

Ok. So what about the other streams? There are 2 streams in eastern PA listed that I know absolutely nothing about, so those might be correct. Penns section 3? All of Fishing Creek? Again, even Slate and Cedar? If someone from Florida asked me what the BEST wild brook trout waters in the state were, would I mention Penns, Fishing, Spring, Cedar, and Slate?

That's my issue with all of them (except the 2 eastern streams). Would I agree with PFBC as far as the best PA brookie streams? That's essentially what my client asked me. That's why I don't think Spring being listed as one of the best brook trout streams in the state is a simple data entry error.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Maybe thats what they mean

I've fished it all the way up alongside the Pleasant Gap hatchery, and caught all browns, no brookies.

Gap Run in Pleasant Gap has brookies. Gap Run goes down a sinkhole.

Gap Run is in the same drainage. But they are two different streams.

Brookies could certainly still reach that cold larger food rich habitat if they wanted to via the tribs on bald eagle. Point being its pretty obvious why they likely don’t. In regard to our best brook trout waters in the state, my understanding is PFBC doesn’t have a great picture of what we actually have left because stream surveys are under staffed and biologists territory’s are comically big. I doubt we even have an accurate idea of what we have lost or whats still there.

 

[Fish Sticks]

 

[Fish Sticks]

Segloch is listed as allopatric class A brookie but i believe there was downstream stocking of brown trout and the threads on here for that stream tell the story its almost if not totally allopatric brown now

 

[Fish Sticks]

Think alot of the mapping is faulty and over representing what allopatric brookies we’ve got because we are behind on shocking or don’t want to find out.

 

[Paralep]

This is really not surprising considering that the PFBC is made up of mainly non anglers and that includes biologists. Many, but not all of course, are book taught and without real world knowledge. Throw in a very strong and influential Trout Unlimited made up of mainly former CEOs and office workers turned “Trout Bums” with little real river knowledge and away we go... just thoughts. Think about it!

 

[Fish Sticks]

I think mike had mentioned on here not long ago the staff(biologists) had proposed to make class B brook trout streams no stock but this was voted down. So what ever fisheries science element they have in house was not really driving the buss.

What I would personally like to see is the fish commission hold a public forum with the Eastern Brook Trout Joint Venture that would serve as a science based constructive audit of their fisheries management when it comes to brook trout and come up with some changes in management that reflect brook trouts status as species of greatest conservation need in the state wild life action plan. They have the experts ready to help and their not using the recommendations. Meanwhile here is a quote from david thorne the PFBC equivalent in wv speaking to incorporating solid fisheries science we have into the scale we manage these fish at.

“They need to be a large, contiguous and well connected native brook trout watershed,” said Thorne. “This is a watershed idea based on a lot of the research I and other people have conducted. Connectivity between the tributaries and main stems is how we see increased growth in fish. They have larger habitat, more food available, and can move to different habitats during different parts of their life cycle.”

DNR looks to enhance native brook trout waters - WV MetroNews

Plan being crafted is the next step in the evolution of trout management after work to improve habitat and water quality for many years begins to pay dividends in West Virginia.

wvmetronews.com

 

[Mike]

This is really not surprising considering that the PFBC is made up of mainly non anglers and that includes biologists. Many, but not all of course, are book taught and without real world knowledge. Throw in a very strong and influential Trout Unlimited made up of mainly former CEOs and office workers turned “Trout Bums” with little real river knowledge and away we go... just thoughts. Think about it!

There were many avid anglers (biologists) in the Fisheries Management Division.

 

[silverfox]

I'm just hung up on the question of what anyone here would tell someone from out of state that asked what our best brook trout waters are. Of course, we have blue lines off in remote forests, but we can probably all identify a handful or more brown trout waters immediately. I have no problem answering the question of what our best brown trout waters are. Penns, Little J, Fishing Creek, Spring Creek, Letort, Spruce, Falling Spring. Even wild rainbows, I'd agree with PFBC on that one. These are all well-known streams, and I don't think anyone here would hesitate to name them. They're all well publicized.

Brook trout? I'm struggling to think of one. Since they're called out on the first result in Google, I assume it's ok to ask here. Are Roaring Brook – Sec# 2, Lackawanna County, and Black Creek – Sec# 2, Carbon County, our crown jewel brook trout streams? The Best Fishing Waters map suggests so. Aside from Spring, Penns, Fishing, Slate, and Cedar, those are the only other streams listed for brook trout in the state. Maybe I need to make a trip east?

Edit> Something must be wrong here. Roaring brook and Black Creek are both listed as Class A brown trout. It's looking like this is some screw-up on map/data labeling rather than intentional misguidance. My other comments still stand.