Lehigh River Private Again

Kinda sounds like a veiled threat?

Well, the landowner would be in the wrong in the eyes of the law there Longbow....but why should that stop you here in rootin tootin/gun totin/outlaw ridden/take the law into your own hands because you fear everyone Pennsylvania...
 
Pennsylvania's statute, 18 PA. CONS. STAT. ANN. § 3503 (West 2000), is
based on the Model Penal Code's trespass provision, which does not
specifically mention hunting but requires posting (or fencing or
enclosing) to exclude all trespassers from land (posting is not
required for buildings and occupied structures).

\l "B63" Pennsylvania courts generally hold that posting is required
to exclude hunters. See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Sweeley, 29 Pa. D. &
C.4th 426, 433 (C.P. 1995) ("Open lands that are not posted or fenced
off are presumed open for recreational use by the public, especially in
rural counties where hunting and outdoor activities are common.").

Various secondary sources provide general insight about whether and
when landowners must post to exclude hunters. The Model Penal Code's
criminal trespass provision, on which Pennsylvania's trespass statute
is based, \l "F88" requires landowners to post nonfenced land [*pg 565]
(excluding buildings and occupied structures) to exclude any would-be
trespassers, including hunters. \l "F89" The Restatement (Second) of
Torts states that,
f. . . it is the custom in wooded or rural areas to permit the
public to go hunting on private land . . . , anyone who goes hunting .
. . may reasonably assume, in the absence of posted notice or other
manifestation to the contrary, that there is the customary consent to
his entry upon private land to hunt or fish." \l "F90"

 
PALongbow wrote:
A landowner could also assume that said trespasser is posing harm to him personally and his property. It's probably better to ask permission than to assume access to ones property.

Ron
Click to expand...

The landowner could. And in that case (assuming the property is not posted) it would be the landowner's responsibility to inform the person on their property that they are not welcome. After all, under PA law they're not a trespasser until they've been informed by the landowner that they are not welcome. In the circumstances you outline above, on an unposted property, my guess is the courts would say the most reasonable course of action on the landowner's part would be to politely inform the person they are on private property, that you are the owner of the property, and instruct them they are not welcome and to leave. Probably a good idea in that case to just have posted the property in the first place of course.

You're insinuating that someone should always ask to be on unposted, private property. While for the most part I agree with you from a practice stand point, the law is clear it's not required. In fact, the opposite is true under the law...It's the landowner who is responsible for informing the public of the intent of their land. The "trespasser" isn't a trespasser until they've been informed. A properly posted property, fencing, and verbal communciation generally all constitute informed. Unless a landowner plans to spend their entire life patrolling the borders of their property, it seems to me the yellow signs are a more practical and efficient, albeit less aesthetically pleasing, course.
 
Swattie,

Careful. If you are on another's property, legally, illegally, invited, or whatever, you are defined as a trespasser. It's just that trespassing itself isn't a crime in PA. Illegal trespassing is a crime.

A landowner could also assume that said trespasser is posing harm to him personally and his property.
Click to expand...

I don't see why, but sure, why not? But if the trespasser is legally there, then the landowner can in no way harm or threaten the trespasser. All he can do is tell him to leave. If the trespasser refuses, then the landowner can threaten prosecution.




Going the other way, it's common for many would be hunters and fisherman to claim a bunch of B.S. about "proper" posting. It has to be signed. They have to be spaced every ___ feet. etc. etc. etc. Therefore this signage is invalid and I can hunt and fish here.

It's all B.S.

If you saw a sign. Even a SINGLE, unsigned one. Then you saw it. You've been informed. It's that simple. You are to assume the entire property is posted. And if the boundaries aren't clearly marked, it's on you to look up where the property boundaries are and stay off the entire thing. If you want access, it's on you to find out who the owner is and ask.

The test is whether you were informed that you are not welcome. If no, you are free to go on that land. If yes, then you're not.

My biggest complaint is that many landowners have specific instructions, but just put up the "no trespassing sign". For instance, I know landowners who are happy to have people access their property by foot, but they don't want people to drive on their lane, for instance. But instead of putting up a sign that says "fishing and hunting permitted, please don't drive on my lane", they just have a "no trespassing" sign on a tree by the lane. Legally that renders the entire property of limits to any access at all. If a landowner merely has rules about access, then post the rules.
 
If you were indeed at RT 115 and got on the river at the bridge, Wild Land Conservancy own the land there and you are legally on the river. However below that point and on the North Bank there is private land, so you could have been trespassing. I would first call Wild Lands Conservancy, and ask them if they've got their land marked, then I would call the Fish Commission WCO and talk to him be clear about exactly where you were on the river and how you accessed the river. Then ask him to check it out. If you were legally on the River then there is the possibility of a harassment case.
 
pcray - I knew how Longbow meant it, and you knew how we both meant it. (The context in this thread of "Illegal Trespasser" was pretty clear I think.) Nonetheless, I'm always a fan of a pcrayin'.

 
pcray:
In return, the landowner is not liable for any injury you may encounter on his property
Click to expand...

But that doesn't prevent someone from trying to sue for an incurred injury. Now you're wrapped up in court, paying for a lawyer, etc...and generally with no recourse for recovery even when the case is finally settled in your favor. It's happened to a friend of mine and I'm sure he's not the only one out there that's gone through it. Five grand in legal b.s. vs 50 bucks for a staple gun and pile of signs, seems like an easy choice to me. If I had similar property, it would be posted and if I don't know you personally, you're not getting on.
 
Hey there npaszko.

I thought you were going back there to challenge this guy and take video of it? Did you get any info from authorities? Please get back to us here. We need a hero right now.
 
Maybe he's in the slammer!
 
Was there any result here? We're in cliffhanger status - waiting for the ending!
 
I have property in the Poconos and have been broken into 5 times in the last 10 yrs. My property is now posted because of this. Two yrs ago my daughter and I were having coffee and watching a huge Tom walk up our back field when some guy shot it within 70 yds of my house . Went out to get his liscense number and he points a shotgun at me and tells me he will do what he wants. People are ignorant and stupid and should learn to respect others property. I now have an alarm system and cameras on the land there are posted signs and it just doesn't stop people. Last year in the field next to my house there were about 30 Turkeys a young guy sees them and stops to ask permission to hunt them and I told him no and the reasons why a week later I find him hunting on my property. What do you do. I also have 3 bullet holes thru the house.
 
trout48,

That's just messed up. I'm sorry you had these experiences. It reminded me of the cabin my folks used to have on Hawley back in the 60s. They ended up selling it b/c it got vandalized way too often.

Sad.
 
trout48 wrote:
I have property in the Poconos and have been broken into 5 times in the last 10 yrs. My property is now posted because of this. Two yrs ago my daughter and I were having coffee and watching a huge Tom walk up our back field when some guy shot it within 70 yds of my house . Went out to get his liscense number and he points a shotgun at me and tells me he will do what he wants. People are ignorant and stupid and should learn to respect others property. I now have an alarm system and cameras on the land there are posted signs and it just doesn't stop people. Last year in the field next to my house there were about 30 Turkeys a young guy sees them and stops to ask permission to hunt them and I told him no and the reasons why a week later I find him hunting on my property. What do you do. I also have 3 bullet holes thru the house.
Click to expand...

Honestly, not surprised. That is typical Northeastern PA mentality - the Poconos are not a nice area because of it. Before I moved to the NE part of the state I remember hearing people talk about how nice the Poconos are and I will say this -. There are little havens but for the most part it is extremely run down, lots of drug problems (thus the break-ins and high crime) and after living in each part of the state now I would say it is probably the least nice part of the state.

 
Yep...Me too. I like to fish in the Poconos, but I'll take day trips, or camp or get a hotel for a longer stint. I wouldn't want a second home or cabin up there for the reasons outlined.

Potter/Tioga/Clinton, or the northeastern part of Mifflin County also really appeals to me.
 
My grandparents bought the land during the depression about 111 acres and there is no way I will sell it. I have retired and my wife is a year away so we will be living up there. The area is not bad just after 911 a lot of NY moved up there and it has gone down hill from there. No offense to any one . Just not enough work up there. My neighbors are great. Last break in they kicked the front door in and the alarm went off they took off no pix on the cameras never entered the house. 700 bucks to have a new door installed my handyman nows the size and what he needs to repair it so its fixed right away. The annoying thing is the state police will do nothing the barracks is to far away and they say they are understaffed. Where is my tax money going.
 
I was kind of hoping to learn about access to the Lehigh River...

:-o
 
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