Lehigh River and the PFBC's take on wild trout.

[LehighRegular]

Timmy

I won't argue that point.

But protection of trout or aquatic life is ecological....not recreational.

Where releasing water for rafters is directly related to recreation.

Honestly, its semantics....but its the hand we are dealt. Just gotta play the game.


I got in touch with Greenlander. Thanks guys.

 

[RyanR]

blueheron wrote:
It's a nice thought, a true cold water tailwater, and I hope it happens for the next generation but it's just one part of letting the Lehigh be all that it can be. The insect indicators of clean water can't survive the polluted tribs in the gorge, the fish muddle through, but it will take a two stage process of fish friendly releases and AMD and current mining discharge abatement to bring the Lehigh back to where I'm sure it was long before our time.

I think you need to catch up on what's been going on with the Lehigh. The insect abundance IS there, including the pollution intolerant insects such as stoneflies. There are active AMD abatement projects, notably for the Lausanne Tunnel which is the biggest contributor of AMD to the Lehigh. The other year I even caught several trout from right near its outflow, including a pretty 17" holdover brookie.

A word about angler $$ and rafter $$. I've been on rafting trips with Pocono Whitewater. They bring in lots of people, especially each summer weekend, and make a lot of money. However from what I've seen I think there is far less money spent by these rafters actually in the towns themselves along the river. Most of these rafters arrive to Pocono Whitewater, get a bus ride launch and at the end of the trip get a bus ride back to Pocono Whitewater and then head home on I-80 or the Turnpike. Sure some may stop at a local restaurant on 903 or even venture back down to Jim Thorpe but most do not. Contrast that with the fact that anglers typically do spend money at businesses in the towns they visit and at quality fishing destinations they often spend several days or a week. I think the direct economic boost to a variety of local businesses is a very real strength for anglers.

 

[SBecker]

O there are aquatic macro invertebrates....lots and lots and lots of them. I don't think anybody who has knowledge of the river would tell you otherwise.

 

[Mike]

timmyt: I doesn't pay for itself until the taxpayers get their money back plus interest, meaning that the federal government gets $50 million (if that is the cost of the tower modification) in taxes plus interest as a result of whatever economic growth the project stimulates. Since there will also be ongoing expenses for taxpayers (via the Corps maintenance and personnel costs), those will also have to be covered by taxes generated by the economic growth associated with the project. Not only that, but the only taxes that truly count are those that would not have been collected anyway, meaning that companies would need to directly grow their businesses as a result of the project beyond the rate that they would have grown anyway and people (tourists, for example) would need to spend additional money that they would not have spent elsewhere. If they would have spent the same amount of money on recreation elsewhere in the USA, then the project would not be generating true economic growth; it would just be shifting money from one business to another with no gain in tax revenues for the feds and at the expense of one business in favor of another.

 

[SBecker]

Mikes right. Should just keep it the way it is and keep stocking it.

 

[Mike]

Again, I think it is a fair question. Will the project pay for itself plus interest and added ongoing operating expenses at the federal level?

 

[blueheron]

If you are going to compare the Lehigh to the Upper Delaware you can't honestly say the bug life on the Lehigh is not what it could be. Yes, there are plenty of stoneflies and caddis, they are the most tolerant , but it's my personal unscientific observation of the undersides of rocks in many miles of water on the Lehigh that the insect life is sparse. It's sounds like I'm trying to spoil the party, it's makes me sick when I think what it could be, that's all. I may be wrong but I don't think so.

 

[SBecker]

I will have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of insect life. It might not be the Upper Delaware, but not much is.

 

[BeastBrown]

The Lehigh lacks sheer tonnage of each variety that the Delaware has, but it has a pretty solid mass of what it does have. The stoneflies and hellgrammites alone are unreal. The caddis hatch for what seems like the whole summer into fall, then isos, huge march browns. I don't hit down by the Pohopoco, but what keeps these fish smaller(relative to a spring creek the Delaware or a really cold freestoner) is the temperature I think.

Wait, so the cold temps right now are not a glitch, it is reality based on what Lehigh Regular said?

 

[blueheron]

Becker, we'll hit the gorge this fall, you'll see what I mean. I was refering to the gorge, not your section.

 

[vcregular]

I believe it is pretty well documented that as you move downstream thru the gorge and below Jim Thorpe the water quality gets more alkaline, thus more fertile. This is due to the geology and of course the tribs are more alkaline. Bug life is pretty good down that way all season long. Now is it Upper D caliber, I don't know, but the progression of hatches on the Lehigh can be heavy at times. One overlooked hatch on the Lehigh that I would classify as heavy and the fish love them is the large olive that hatches late afternoon late May, early June. And you don't need that classic 'olive weather' day to get them going.

Regardless, I would tend to agree that if you are talking bugs, you do need to be specific about the location you are referring to.

 

[SBecker]

I absolutely love that hatch! Cornutas? You will find the fish when that hatch goes on. I have slammed some hogs during it.

 

[RyanR]

Mike it might be a fair question but you don't seem to paint it quite in a fair light. At least regarding maintenance and personnel costs, the Corps already operates the dam and they don't need added personnel to operate a new tower and I don't think the maintenance costs increase exponentially versus the current tower.

Speaking of getting our money's worth, sure would be nice if the PFBC folks in the Southeast region would stop giving excuses and finally officially list the Class A section of Martins Creek as such. Every year for now for numerous years you folks have told my chapter members one excuse or another why it didn't get listed, including saying it was an oversight twice. The latest excuse was that it was tied up with the Marcellus issue and not listing new streams. Through it all the stream continues to easily surpass Class A standards for wild brown trout each and every survey and we've been "patient and understanding" quite a while but it's gotten to the point where I for one am no longer frustrated with the PFBC I'm actually disgusted. I'd love to see that it's finally listed but that seems like it's going to be as long of a struggle as getting new tower at FE Walter.

 

[RyanR]

blueheron wrote:
If you are going to compare the Lehigh to the Upper Delaware you can't honestly say the bug life on the Lehigh is not what it could be. Yes, there are plenty of stoneflies and caddis, they are the most tolerant , but it's my personal unscientific observation of the undersides of rocks in many miles of water on the Lehigh that the insect life is sparse. It's sounds like I'm trying to spoil the party, it's makes me sick when I think what it could be, that's all. I may be wrong but I don't think so.

Since when are stoneflies among the most tolerant like caddis? The Lehigh already has excellent macro invertebrate diversity and continues to improve every year. It's unfair to only draw comparison to the Upper D which has not suffered the damage the Lehigh did for decades. The Lehigh's abundance of insects us nothing short of remarkable and a testament to the true potential of the river. Aside from the Upper D I think it's one of the best mid to large streams in NEPA for bug life. Not sure when and where you rolled rocks but the Lehigh has very good hatches of stoneflies, march browns, gray foxes, sulphurs (especially the big ones), Isonychia, BWOs (from small to cornutas), and of course caddis. There are several of others too that hatch in good numbers as well, I know I'm forgetting a bunch.

I floated the gorge from White Haven to Rockport and we ran into a tremendous hatch of BWOs and there plentiful gray foxes and of course stoneflies among others.

 

[BeastBrown]

RyanR wrote:
The latest excuse was that it was tied up with the Marcellus issue and not listing new streams. Through it all the stream continues to easily surpass Class A standards for wild brown trout each and every survey and we've been "patient and understanding" quite a while but it's gotten to the point where I for one am no longer frustrated with the PFBC I'm actually disgusted.

Question, are you talking about state wide reluctance to put streams in exceptional value status so the gas industry has an easier time plowing pipeline through them?

 

[RyanR]

BeastBrown wrote:

RyanR wrote:
The latest excuse was that it was tied up with the Marcellus issue and not listing new streams. Through it all the stream continues to easily surpass Class A standards for wild brown trout each and every survey and we've been "patient and understanding" quite a while but it's gotten to the point where I for one am no longer frustrated with the PFBC I'm actually disgusted.

Question, are you talking about state wide reluctance to put streams in exceptional value status so the gas industry has an easier time plowing pipeline through them?

Yes, the last excuse we were told when it again didn't make the list was the state was listing any new streams in Marcellus regions until further notice. Never mind the fact the Martins Creek is not at all in a drilling area. To add insult to injury, after their last survey they publicly commented in the report on a refuge pool harboring large wild browns. I guess since they don't fish it or engage in local efforts to protect it means little and doesn't affect them? Our chapter has always tried to work with and support the PFBC but on this issue I'm tired of being jerked around and basically lied to (if it's not going to be listed don't keep telling us it will be each time.)

 

[BeastBrown]

RyanR wrote:


Yes, the last excuse we were told when it again didn't make the list was the state was listing any new streams in Marcellus regions until further notice. Never mind the fact the Martins Creek is not at all in a drilling area. To add insult to injury, after their last survey they publicly commented in the report on a refuge pool harboring large wild browns. I guess since they don't fish it or engage in local efforts to protect it means little and doesn't affect them? Our chapter has always tried to work with and support the PFBC but on this issue I'm tired of being jerked around and basically lied to (if it's not going to be listed don't keep telling us it will be each time.)

Ah, makes sense. The lower Poconos may not be prime drilling territory, as in sink a well, but it probably has new pipeline projects in the works right across the gamelands, state forests, and parks.

 

[BeastBrown]

http://thelehighriver.org/data.html Lots and lots of info.


"Water was being discharged through the bottom release gates and a set of by-pass gates located at elevation 1297 feet, approximately 45 feet off the bottom of the lake."

Anyone know if the by-pass gates are in fine working condition?

But anyway, much progress has been made even without this top water release. Probably 1 or 2 people at first, then a few more, but just a little bit of leadership and there is improvement. So thanks to whoever that was and is.

Wasn't there a recent cold water projection completed about increased storage? Anyone know where that data is?

 

[BeastBrown]

http://lrsa.org/WQ/2013%20Lehigh%20River%20Tributary%20Survey.pdf

Recent water quality report of middle river and its tribs. Upper river above this point in Jim Thorpe is the formal state park which I believe is 26 miles from the FEW to Walnutport. That contains the tribs like Hickory and Mud that everyone always talks about, and probably 20 or so other tribs of varying sizes that have trout and a few that have acid mine drainage but have very good volumes of water adding cold water.

 

[afishinado]

Mike wrote:
Again, I think it is a fair question. Will the project pay for itself plus interest and added ongoing operating expenses at the federal level?

Not surprisingly, Mike is right about the dollars and cents.

The cost of the project, if correct, is right at the entire annual budget of the PFBC....so I wouldn't expect them to help with funds very much.

The State (General Fund) is pretty much in a lock-down mode with their budget, in fact Philly schools are being shut down because of lack of funding.

That leaves the Feds. Few projects meet the standards detailed by Mike, but I don't believe anyone can make the economic numbers work to show an economic boom because of a coldwater fishery in the Lehigh Valley. The Lehigh dollars generated would have to exceed the economic numbers for the Upper Delaware including the Catskill streams many times over. That's a lotta drift boats and waders and on one River.

I'd love to see it happen, but unless or until someone can present a scientific study that the Lehigh can and will become a high quality coldwater tailwater fishery with a controlled cold water release, nothing will happen.

When it is proven to become a viable coldwater fishery, a plan detailing both the expenditures for creating the fishery along with ongoing maintenance costs has to be made by the Corp of Engineers.

When the costs of the project are laid out, an economic study showing how the expenditures and maintenance costs will be offset by an economic boom in the area directly related to the creation of the fishery.

That's what it will take to make it happen, IMHO.