Lead, why isn't it banned?

[jifigz]

I'm just curious why the use of lead hasn't been banned in PA in both shotgunning and fishing. I understand it has many fantastic qualities in both areas, but we also know how toxic it is. Why do we dunk it in our waters? Why can I shoot it at squirrels and doves directly beside the river but, if shooting ducks in the same area, have to use nontoxic? What's the difference? Even in upland hunting in an area that sees heavy use, doves in particular may fill their crops with the tiny 7.5 or 8 shot as grit and therefore die of lead poisoning. It seems odd to me that if shooting ducks or geese over water I'm forced to not use lead but I can lose 20 jigheads in one day.

So it sinks better than tin split shot, it hits harder than steel shotgun shells, it is easy to melt and easy to mold and make your own jigheads, etc, but why do we continue to dump things like it all through our environment when we know it's bad?

 

[PennypackFlyer]

This seems to be a political post. And since political posts were banned before lead. No further responses necessary.

 

[timmyt2]

Politcal post? Seems like a common sense question to me!

 

[jifigz]

PennypackFlyer wrote:
This seems to be a political post. And since political posts were banned before lead. No further responses necessary.

It isn't a political post at all. It is a post out of curiosity and the quest for knowledge. I'm sorry if it came over as political and I can see that but that wasn't my intentions. If the post needs to be banned/deleted, then please feel free moderators.

The reason for the post is due to us who seem to all care about conservation should care about matters like this. When we learned we had almost hunted the bison and the whitetail to extinction we changed before it was too late. This year the mallard limit was reduced to two and only one may be a hen. I will follow those rules because the national government seems to think it needs to reduced for the Atlantic flyway. Yesterday I had a tremendous day in the water and I used lead split shot because it is legal, I'm merely asking why it is legal when we know that it is bad.

 

[Bamboozle]

Why isn't catch & release fly fishing banned?

We catch & release fish, torturing them for our pleasure by playing them; knowing many of the fish we release are maimed or die regardless of how often you insist every fish YOU catch lives to be caught another day.

...just sayin?

 

[ryc72]

i could be mistaken but it was explained to me by someone that lead split shot isnt all that harmful to the environment or water since its not soluble. if split shot gets dropped or gets snagged and lost on the bottom it pretty much just sits there. it doesnt leech into the water or soil or anything like that. im not a scientist or anything like that...was just explained to me that way. i never researched whether that is accurate or not. it seemed like a reasonable explanation.

 

[ColdBore]

I rarely see ducks feeding in the faster water of the runs and riffles where I occasionally lose a piece of lead.

I'm as concerned about the environment and wildlife as anybody, but am able to separate high risk versus low risk, and probable versus improbable.

Still, nothing prevents an individual from voluntarily choosing to not use lead (cough ** "Yesterday... I used lead split shot because it is legal," ** cough) if they are that concerned about it.

 

[jifigz]

I like the idea of it not leaching into the water and being insoluble..and I'm not overly concerned about it but I've been thinking about switching. I just know how harmful it can be to the doves I love to hunt. But at the same time I'll shoot ducks and geese off of water and do you think I'm able to recover each spent shell before it sinks and is gone? No, I'm not. I may think that my small part doesn't matter but then look how much plastic ends up in the oceans and now it's becoming a major problem.

So yeah, I'm currently fishing right now at this very moment using lead shot.

 

[CLSports]

Plastic bottles and bags should be banned. Bigger issue.

Bags are happening slowly. Bottles need to go.

 

[drossi]

Lead shot and lead sinkers were in use many, many years by many, many more hunters and fisherman than there are presently today. If it were such and issue we'd have been in trouble long ago.

Many other more important environmental pollutants and issues to worry about. The lead debate is a nice to use argument to purposely attract attention away from those other issues.

 

[klingy]

My understanding is that it is banned in more northern states where certain birds (common loons especially) are present in higher numbers. They frequently ingest gravel to aid in digestion, and in the process often pick up lead shot, which leads to lead poisoning. Loon populations took a heavy hit from lead exposure, and are still very low in many areas, though recovering in others. Since they aren't as common in PA, I don't think the push to ban lead has been pressed as hard here.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Think, lead paint. Lead is toxic hence the "ban". I think it attaches to hemoglobin in the blood. It produces a lead lint on teeth indicating a toxic poison. I'm calling this up from memory. Time to check. GG

 

[Bamboozle]

klingy wrote:
My understanding is that it is banned in more northern states where certain birds (common loons especially) are present in higher numbers. They frequently ingest gravel to aid in digestion, and in the process often pick up lead shot, which leads to lead poisoning. Loon populations took a heavy hit from lead exposure, and are still very low in many areas, though recovering in others. Since they aren't as common in PA, I don't think the push to ban lead has been pressed as hard here.

We have more loons in PA than you can shake a stick at. Most are politicians...

 

[jifigz]

Bamboozle wrote:

klingy wrote:
My understanding is that it is banned in more northern states where certain birds (common loons especially) are present in higher numbers. They frequently ingest gravel to aid in digestion, and in the process often pick up lead shot, which leads to lead poisoning. Loon populations took a heavy hit from lead exposure, and are still very low in many areas, though recovering in others. Since they aren't as common in PA, I don't think the push to ban lead has been pressed as hard here.

We have more loons in PA than you can shake a stick at. Most are politicians...

That's funny. I have seen loons on the Juniata in the winter time here while smallie fishing..I already mentioned the dove problems. Lead shot bothers them pretty bad.

Now plastic, we can't ban it totally. It is far too useful. The real problem is that people need to quit littering so much. I think I'm going to try to organize a community litter cleanup along Kish Creek once a month. Or maybe I'll just do it. But I fished lower Kish today and it was awful.

 

[Bamboozle]

CLSports wrote:
Plastic bottles and bags should be banned. Bigger issue.

Bags are happening slowly. Bottles need to go.

Litterbugs need to go first!!

I for one, resent having someone tell me what & what I can't use responsively or worse yet, expect me to pay me a fee to use it because some other slob throws it out the window!! Philadelphia has made an art form out of milking money from consumers in the name of reducing obesity, reducing alcohol consumption and next plastic bags...

Slobs are the bigger problem. The amount of trash I see on the side of the roads is disheartening, worse than I ever remember it, especially in PA. SOMEONE is tossing it out the window and I doubt it is baby boomers or senior citizens when I see beer cans, soda cans, Red Bull cans, fast food waste, soiled children's diapers and 2,098,627,371,4567,195 plastic water bottles.

I still remember seeing THOUSANDS of red Solo cups all over the campus of Virginia Tech one time I was in the area after some event took place on campus. I guess the students figured mommy was going to pick up after them. I'm sure it's no different on campuses across the country.

PA State Parks are a mess with litter, dog walkers clean-up after their pets with plastic bags and leave the plastic bag on the trail for someone else to dispose of. I see piles of beer cans all over the place when I fish in city parks in the Lehigh Valley area; the list goes on and on...

The future generations we are supposed to be saving the planet for need to step-up and start cleaning up their own messes and not expecting someone else to do it for them literally or through legislation.

Bans on straws & plastic bags is nothing but a feelgood measure which amounts to next to nothing in the volume of plastic in landfills or your local creek. It only results in higher profits for the stores that sell $2 reusable bags to morons and higher costs for the consumer who is dumb enough to buy a stainless steel straw.

NEWS FLASH - Single use bags can be recycled or used as a LITTER BAG!!

Ban all plastic or forget it.

In the meantime, PA needs a bottle bill like New York enacted almost 40 years ago and while I don't expect expanded enforcement, raising the fine for littering in Pennsylvania would help. It should be $1500 like many other CLEANER states.

Maybe you lose your privileges if you litter on a highway, creek or State Park but all I know is the $300 fine is a joke. I don't expect any fine to scare away the truly arrogant, but maybe a $1500 fine and a few aggressive enforcement programs using cameras in certain areas would get one or two people to think twice about tossing that McDonald's bag out the window.

In the meantime, I ain't sweating lead ammunition or fishing weights.

EOR

 

[jifigz]

While we are on the topic of litter, I'll say this, the twin cities is the cleanest major metro area I've ever been in..in fact, Minnesota in general was very clean when I was there. So much different than here in PA. I'd move to Minnesota way up North and become a pike, smallmouth, and walleye guy only. They don't have nearly the trout water that we do though ...

 

[Dave_W]

This isn't a political matter and is a perfectly appropriate topic.

Many topics on our forum have been beaten to death and it's nice to see a new issue introduced (or at least one we haven't chewed on in awhile).

 

[Dave_W]

Lead split shot is banned in Yellowstone (or used to be) and lead bird shot has been banned for years in some places due to ingestion by waterfowl.

I'm agnostic on the issue and am willing to consider some new angles or knowledge on this. For now, I'm inclined to think a lead ban, at least for fishing gear, probably isn't warranted in PA. When you consider how much lead a FFer leaves in the environment compared to shooting firearms, especially shotguns, it seems mighty inconsequential.

Am I wrong?

 

[riverwhy]

What about informal shooting ranges such as those at many upstate cabins? I know of one where the club owner says all the lead from years of shooting (clays mainly) is killing all the trees. I have seen it. Not sure if it is from the lead or just the damage from all the bullets and shot. This is also near the headwaters of a wild trout stream.

 

[jifigz]

Dave_W wrote:
Lead split shot is banned in Yellowstone (or used to be) and lead bird shot has been banned for years in some places due to ingestion by waterfowl.

I'm agnostic on the issue and am willing to consider some new angles or knowledge on this. For now, I'm inclined to think a lead ban, at least for fishing gear, probably isn't warranted in PA. When you consider how much lead a FFer leaves in the environment compared to shooting firearms, especially shotguns, it seems mighty inconsequential.

Am I wrong?

Dave, I totally agree with you..with that said I litter the fields around my house shooting tons of clay pigeons, doves, real pigeons, etc with lead. I'm as guilty as anyone else. The hunting aspect is terrible as far as lead in bird shot is concerned and doves ingesting it. But, lead shot is cheaper, it has better properties, and is legal, so I use it. But I question why we haven't switched to steel as the new "cheap" alternative. With that said, I love shotgunning and I won't stop any time soon.