just some random marcellus thoughts

[bikerfish]

I've been thinking about all this talk about the claims of this whole thing being an economic boom for our state, yadda yadda yadda.
SOOOOOO, was that the same line of crap the coal companies gave way back when? what about the timber companies? how are those economic booms affecting us today? how about the individual boom towns that sprang up around those industries? are they still thriving towns, or are they run down dumps?
we can include other types of booms as well, the gold rush out west, the oil boom in alaska,etc.
the more I think about it, the less I like the word boom. there is nothing sustainable about it. when the resource runs out, the town seems to die. I'm sure there are some exemptions, but most of the old coal towns I drive through are run down pieces of crap that you couldn't pay me to live in.
how are these gas companies contributing to the areas they affect? unless a severence tax is put in place, where part of that tax goes to the community being affected.
these companies should be contributing to the fire depts, police depts, even the local conservation organizations. remember the old saying "if ya can't beat em, join em"?
yes, some folks will/are benefitting. landowners that sell leases, some bars/restaurants/motels. there are some local industries that can supply the gas industry with things they use.
but for the majority of residents in this state, there will be no boom, and if history repeats itself, that may be a good thing.

 

[pcray1231]

how about the individual boom towns that sprang up around those industries? are they still thriving towns

Define dump or thriving. I'd say most are thriving. For coal, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Reading, Wilkes-Baree, etc. Remember, the "boom" is far more than the mining aspects, but also the transportation of it (railroads and such), and the final products it made (in coal's case, steel). Further, without PA and WV coal, our electricity bills would be far higher everywhere.

The PA oil boom towns had far less success, some are ghost towns now. Oil City, Titusville, and Warren are arguably the only sizable towns which still survive.

how are these gas companies contributing to the areas they affect?

You seem to misunderstand the term "economy". Direct vs. indirect benefits. Those restaurants, motels, etc. that are doing well, they have suppliers all around the state and country which are doing well. They have employees, and if they do well, they'll have more employees and pay them better. Those employees, and those landowners who are getting the money, all buy other stuff, which feeds a different industry, etc.

And just because there isn't a severence tax does not mean that the state and local governments aren't benefitting. The companies still pay business taxes. The employees all pay state income taxes, even if they're not from PA, they're making money in PA. Anyone who lives in PA is also paying local taxes, which is based on income. Plus, many of those "landowners" recieving a % of sales are public entities, such as the state.

I do fear the wrong municipalities may recieve money. For instance, if the well is in Potter County, but the crew doing the work is based out of Altoona, then all of our taxes are based on the place of business, which would be Altoona, and Potter County gets all the negative aspects and little of the positive. I'm all for looking at adjusting that, to make the beneficiaries more in line with the localities of the wells.

 

[Fishidiot]

Biker and Pcray,
Some good thoughts/views ....(as usual).
I agree with both of you.

 

[franklin]

You can't compare what was done by the timber and coal companies to what is happening now with gas drilling. In those days there were no environmental laws and little knowledge about the impacts. The scale of those efforts were also far above what is happening with gas drilling. Literally thousands of tons of coal dirt washed down streams and rivers during the coal boom. Many tens of thousands of acres of mountain areas were de-nuded by logging. In addition many hundreds of tons of sawdust and tremendous amounts of tanic acid flowed do streams. Even massive sections of the Susquehanna ran tanic stained.

 

[osprey]

Just 2 cents , one of the left over problems of the timbering is the paper mills.

 

[pcray1231]

You can't compare what was done by the timber and coal companies to what is happening now with gas drilling. In those days there were no environmental laws and little knowledge about the impacts.

Definitely true. Especially considering both timbering and coal are still very active in PA. I wouldn't dare say that they currently have zero environmental impact, but it is fair to say their impact is far less (per unit of material produced) than in the old days.

 

[bikerfish]

franklin, I'm not talking about any of the environmental concerns, I'm talking only about economic concerns. I agree that we have a much better hand on environmental concerns these days.
pcray, I wouldn't say pittsburgh is thriving. surviving yes. for quite a few decades, pittsburgh was in a very sad state. mills closing, very high unemployment. only in the past couple decades has pittsburgh rebounded, and very little of that rebound has to do with any type of extraction, I think most if it is health care related, technology related, etc.
as for oil city, titusville, warren. I think they are barely surviving as well. the building of a walmart is not a sign of economic strength. the towns themselves are not thriving, lots of vacant buildings and run down houses. granted, not all of this decline is the result of money running out from coal/oil/etc. I think alot of it is the result of the local people themselves. "they" left town. "they" should provide us with jobs. "they" should... I think you get the idea. people need to look at themselves and see what "they" can do for their own community and find ways to make a living, without depending on large outside corporations.
there are many successful towns across this country that are not dependant or based around large corporations.
as for WV, despite all the coal that was mined there and continues to be mined, it remains one of the poorest states. I'm sure the coal companies all touted to the people how mining their coal will bring great economic boom.
I think we really need to be careful with this industry and really do our homework before making decisions.
pcray, I understand your view about the trickle down of money from drilling, but what happens when it's gone? who is going to eat in the newly expanded restaurant, who is going to stay in the new motels? will they be able to fill them with tourists who want to see drilling sites being reclaimed?
if the boom attracts business that will be able to exist after the drilling, that would be awesome. I guess it will be up to the people and the communities where it is taking place, they will be the ones to determine what they think is good for their futures. history has shown that the quick dollar is not very sustaining.

 

[franklin]

From an economic standpoint gas doesn't compare to the hay days of coal. Heck Pottsville even had an NFL team (Maroons which are now the Redskins).

 

[Acristickid]

Interesting. While I am skeptical so far about the PSU study that estimates 10,000's of thousands of jobs plus (direct drilling jobs). Seems most of the high paying or highly skilled jobs are people from TX,LA,OK.

Unfortunatly isnt the thing just get'en going? With the deeper gas being explored, I have heard it mentioned this thing is a 50 year deal.

My random thought is for some it is a struggle to deal with (mainly those with no skin in the game) but for those with propsed drill sites on their property or pipelines crossing their property- it is not really a decision at all for the vast majority. I don't own any land but if I did it I probably convinced with an extra $2500 or $3500 a month depending on the particulars- and I consider myself a bit of a conservationalist.

Seems most of the farms are owned by older folks who might have an attachment to but sadly when the become reliant on a nursing home or their kids take over the property it becomes an easy sell.

In some ways- I wish they would focus on SWPA since the water ways are already defiled around here and let up in other areas.

There does'nt seem to be a lack of trucking jobs at least locally. I hunted this fall fairly close a rig- hope people know that dozens of trucks will be blowing up and down their roads all day hauling in pipe- that is a real problem too.

All the proof anyone needs to be skeptical is look to the past.

 

[pcray1231]

Oh, I wasn't arguing that Oil City, Titusville, and Warren were "thriving", just that they were the only oil boom towns that I could think of that still existed.

As far as the others, yeah, it depends on your definition of "thriving" as I said before. I agree the "rebound" is not the direct result of coal. However, it is the result of having a large city, with infrastructure in place. Which is the result of coal. If those towns are depressed, then all of PA is pretty much depressed, which may be true...

I just think saying an industry may someday dry up is a poor excuse to not do it. All industries dry up, you cross that bridge when you get there. The only ones that don't are sex, drugs, and gambling, lol. Thats just the way it is. You don't turn down "thriving" because of economic concerns of the future, economics are the reason TO do it. There may be other reasons to turn it down, but not economics.

All economies HAVE to produce something to be successful as a whole, I strongly believe that. Retail, administration, law, service, etc. all simply ride the coattails of mining and manufacturing. Every society that sees a strong decline in a combination of mining and manufacturing per # of people sees a strong decline in the standard of living. We've only avoided it through debt spending. We live well beyond our means. Because our means are less than they used to be and we refuse to accept it.

That said, I do believe in environmental controls as well. The question is always to what degree?, the devil is in the details. Too much, and you lose the mining and manufacturing to countries that don't care about environmental controls. Too little, and you ruin your water, health, and leisure. It's a thin line to walk, and gets thinner all the time, to the point that there may be no line anymore. I don't have a solution. But when I see an already existing industry that can greatly expand, with far less environmental damage than most others, I support it. That doesn't mean I don't keep an eye on it, and make sure they do what they need to do for the environment. But you get far more by working with them than just opposing everything they do. Believe it or not, they're eager for help in avoiding impact, cause the last thing they need is a bad press release like Dimock.

 

[jdaddy]

pcray1231 wrote:

Define dump or thriving. I'd say most are thriving. For coal, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Reading, Wilkes-Baree, etc.

Altoona? Reading? Wilkes-Baree? Thriving? Seriously?

 

[jeff]

jdaddy wrote:

pcray1231 wrote:

Define dump or thriving. I'd say most are thriving. For coal, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Reading, Wilkes-Baree, etc.

Altoona? Reading? Wilkes-Baree? Thriving? Seriously?

My thoughts exactly!

 

[pcray1231]

Is the mocking because you don't think those towns are coal towns?

Or because you don't consider them to be "thriving".

If #2, I agree with you and admitted as much. I just don't see where their economics are all that different than 90% of the rest of the state. PA in general is not thriving, in fact the same can be said for basically the entire rust belt. And yes, this is due to the fact that coal and industries that are historically coal driven (even if they aren't today) are on the decline.

 

[jeff]

pcray1231 wrote:
Is the mocking because you don't think those towns are coal towns?

Or because you don't consider them to be "thriving".

If #2, I agree with you and admitted as much. I just don't see where their economics are all that different than 90% of the rest of the state. PA in general is not thriving, in fact the same can be said for basically the entire rust belt. And yes, this is due to the fact that coal and industries that are historically coal driven (even if they aren't today) are on the decline.

Yes pcray the mocking is because of #2. Also Reading has not really been prosperous since the decline of the coal industry after WII. Besides a peroid of time where we were known for our clothing outlets. Reading is a coal boom to bust town. We didn't mine the coal we were just a hub to distribute it thanks to the infamous Reading Railroad. Today we are known better as a town where free loaders can get welfare and food stamps without much of a hassle. One of America's most dangerous smaller cities, and oh yeah we are in bankruptcy. The burbs are still ok. The city sucks.

 

[jeff]

bikerfish wrote:
I've been thinking about all this talk about the claims of this whole thing being an economic boom for our state, yadda yadda yadda.
SOOOOOO, was that the same line of crap the coal companies gave way back when? what about the timber companies? how are those economic booms affecting us today? how about the individual boom towns that sprang up around those industries? are they still thriving towns, or are they run down dumps?
we can include other types of booms as well, the gold rush out west, the oil boom in alaska,etc.
the more I think about it, the less I like the word boom. there is nothing sustainable about it. when the resource runs out, the town seems to die. I'm sure there are some exemptions, but most of the old coal towns I drive through are run down pieces of crap that you couldn't pay me to live in.
how are these gas companies contributing to the areas they affect? unless a severence tax is put in place, where part of that tax goes to the community being affected.
these companies should be contributing to the fire depts, police depts, even the local conservation organizations. remember the old saying "if ya can't beat em, join em"?
yes, some folks will/are benefitting. landowners that sell leases, some bars/restaurants/motels. there are some local industries that can supply the gas industry with things they use.
but for the majority of residents in this state, there will be no boom, and if history repeats itself, that may be a good thing.

Some towns will see a huge financial impact from drilling. Unfortunately this will not last cause when the drilling stops so does the money coming in. This of corse is the same thing that happened with the coal and oil booms. So yes short term they will get the new police cars and new town hall. My question is who the hell will want to live in these areas after the environment is destroyed??

 

[pcray1231]

Today we are known better as a town where free loaders can get welfare and food stamps without much of a hassle.

Thats BS, Reading's procedures are no different than anyone else's regarding food stamps and welfare. Reading gets a lot of lower class immigrants because of proximity to NYC combined with a low housing/rent cost.

Nonetheless, I agree with you on the rest. But I repeat, the same could be said for most of PA. We are a coal boom/bust state. A rust belt state. These towns are depressed, but they aren't alone, towns that had little to do with coal are depressed as well.

 

[pcray1231]

Some towns will see a huge financial impact from drilling. Unfortunately this will not last cause when the drilling stops so does the money coming in. This of corse is the same thing that happened with the coal and oil booms. So yes short term they will get the new police cars and new town hall. My question is who the hell will want to live in these areas after the environment is destroyed??

Thats a lot of hogwash.

1. In 60-70 years when the money coming from Marcellus slows, there will be Utica, and other gas opportunities. Marcellus doesn't represent "new" interest from gas companies in PA, it's just a step in the road. Shallow gas --> Marcellus --> Utica --> ??? Yeah, where the money goes will change somewhat.

2. All industry does this! You don't not do something because it isn't absolutely permanent. I'm in R&D. How about I go to my boss and say, "gee, sir, I invented this new thing that can make us billions. But I don't think we should market it. Sure we'll make money and expand our business. But 20 years down the road, someone else may make something better, we'll lose our market, and end up having to lay people off."

For the unemployed out there, would you rather remain unemployed, or make good money for 30-40 years before losing your job to a replacement industry????

3. Environmental destruction. Not saying there won't be issues, there already have been and we need to do everything possible to prevent and deal with them. But I'm really tired of this end of the world talk. Repeat after me, "Coal and gas are NOT the same thing." Coal was disastrous in its early days. But times have changed, even the coal mined today is environmentally far better than the old days. Gas isn't anywhere near that bad. We'll be more aware of what damage there is as it happens, so it'll be big news. But they're not on the same scale.

Oh yes, it'd be just terrible to live in the Allegheny National Forest right now, afterall there have been 200k+ gas wells on that land for 20 years. I'd much rather live in an area untouched by coal, oil, and gas, like Reading! :roll:

 

[jeff]

pcray1231 wrote:

Today we are known better as a town where free loaders can get welfare and food stamps without much of a hassle.

Thats BS, Reading's procedures are no different than anyone else's regarding food stamps and welfare. Reading gets a lot of lower class immigrants because of proximity to NYC combined with a low housing/rent cost.

If you had a clue what you are talking about you might be dangerous. In this case you don't. I have family who work in this area and it is a fact that it should be the same for everyone no matter where they live but sadly it isn't. It is a lot easier to manipulate the system when the checks and balances are largly ignored. Which they are in Reading for the most part.

 

[pcray1231]

If you had a clue what you are talking about you might be dangerous. In this case you don't. I have family who work in this area

I might be more qualified than you think. Part of a recent job stint was to help people "in need" find the people they need to find to get help, which may mean referring them to your family members! Scroll down to the 15th guy here:

http://www.uwberks.org/wwwpub/default.aspx?pageid=871

The system is like that pretty much everywhere, its not just here. It's not hard for anyone who qualifies to get in on these programs. Yes, where you live plays a role, and its usually favored for the cities (which I disagree with). So, Reading may be easier than most of Berks Cty. But its the same as Allentown, Bethlehem, Lancaster, etc...

There may be some selection though with the way the community is set up. In heavy welfare/food stamp cities, there is more stores available which streamline the use of food stamps, more housing available that accepts HUD help, etc. Thats more as a response of a community to the problem, rather than the cause, but you could argue it completes a cycle and attracts more.

 

[franklin]

It wasn't all bad in Reading in the post coal era.

http://www.rhodyman.net/rdgworks.html